YHK - yet another hacker news clone

> According to Lakoff, an individual's experience and attitude towards sociopolitical issues are influenced by being framed in linguistic constructions. In Metaphor and War: The Metaphor System Used to Justify War in the Persian Gulf (1991), he argued that the American involvement in the Persian Gulf War was obscured or "spun" by the metaphors which were used by the first Bush administration to justify it.[3] Between 2003 and 2008, Lakoff was involved with a progressive think tank, the now defunct Rockridge Institute.

I will never not find it amusing how a simple thing like money is obscured or "spun" by a thin veil of pseudointellectual bullshit.

Hoftstader's video is pressumably based on his own book "Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies".

Very interesting book. You don't really think about how often metaphors are employed in language, and their influence on how we think. The book makes some rather strong claims regarding science and philosophy being misled by metaphorical thinking, but still a good read.

And it's relevant today given how people like to anthropomorphize LLMs, and compare biology to digital machines we make. Of course there are similarities. But the point about metaphorical thinking is we are mislead by treating metaphors as literally true.

Anyway if the stronger claims in the book are at all true, it might impact how an alien species thinks differently than us (given a lot of our metaphors are biologically based). And could present significant difficulties for decoding an alien signal.

Please read Hofstadter and you will know more about truly interesting questions.

Embedding spaces are all about analogy.

I’m confused why there seems to be a dismissal of the most basic ‘strange loop’ of the LLM - the fact that it’s evaluating a context to choose the next word, then reevaluating in a context where that word has been appended.

That always seemed to me like the essence of a Hofstadterish strange loop, so the emergence of Hofstadterish phenomena (self rep, etc) doesn’t seem surprising.

I don't quite know what Aaronson is trying to say.

First, LLM AI systems have incredibly huge blind spots despite their incredible performance on many tasks, so self-reference might be the key to what's missing (or not). For example, an LLM AI just solved Navier Stokes, but could not explain the LEAN proof, while a human could.

Second, Hofstadter had more than one idea about intelligence and the mind (see the OP topic of this HN discussion!), and LLMs are quite on-point regarding analogy-forming.

So it may be well be that self-reference and analogy are both part of intelligence, and self-reference is missing and that is leading to major weaknesses.

Third, Aaronson links to a (paywalled) Hofstadter essay form 2023, which was eons ago in AI, and from the intro it seems to be about the sadness of AI replacing humans, not a disparagement of AI ability.

I got a bit lost in the comment thread for that article, but I don't understand why LLMs are not considered self referential... They are auto regressive as one of the commenters pointed out, and Scott just sort of waved his hand and said that if auto regression is sufficient then things like Conway's game of Life would also qualify as self-referential.

I don't see why Conway's game of life should not be considered self-referential though... I mean it's isn't it Turing complete? I don't see how any definition of self-referentiality should require throwing out systems which are minimally turing complete... If Turing complete is not enough, doesn't that imply that computable artificial intelligence is impossible in the first place?

I find the discourse under this blog fascinating.

> The big, old ideas about intelligence that ended up basically vindicated were the ideas about how intelligence is about prediction, and prediction is about compression, and compression is about finding better and better upper bounds on Kolmogorov complexity.

Well, sure - prediction works as a baseline, if you abstract out everything else about what counts as intelligence and subsume it under this framework. Any protocol for intelligence can be entirely reduced down to this without trying to understand anything about the structure of intelligence. Solomonoff induction is "vacuous" in this sense too - it doesn't try to understand any intension about the turing machines it finds simple, it just brute forces over all of them. So you're making a claim about intension, whether you want to or not.

It's really no different than say, Darwinians, saying, "what matters is victory at the end". I think the statement has value in the context of some discussions, but trying to make grand statements like this makes it vacuous.

It's one of these classic unfalsifiable too general statements. The way the end of the article is framed is also icky - the way I'm reading it, it needs to prove all the old curmudgeon evil theories wrong. It reminds me of internet debates around what "the scientific method" is or whatever. It has this kind of zeal that needs to pit itself against the "enemy" and assert itself as the sole right viewpoint, even when say, naive "let's just be empirical" is wrong (e.g. recently had a discussion here about Mach and Boltzmann about this and had a similar interaction).

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Basically, "shut up and calculate" type theories are never correct, and furthermore, you yourself don't shut up and calculate, or think that way at all, and a higher level intelligence won't conceive itself as operating on that anyways. So what are we doing here? It seems like a way to get mad and feel like an intellectual victim.

> Protein folding and narrative/storytelling have strange homology

Hmmmmmm. While I get what you mean, and I don't disagree, please be cautious when making analogies between biological systems and more distant fields.

Yes, folding is driven by hydrophobic collapse due to interactions between residue sidechains. Really, though, we are just describing two 'complex systems', where large numbers of diverse interactions between elements leads to diverse and emergent structures.

currently, the harness