YHK - yet another hacker news clone

Remember Hong Kong

54 points throw0101d 1 hour ago 49 comments

31337Logic 1 hour ago | parent

...and the Tiananmen Square Massacre.

jmclnx 1 hour ago | parent

At this point there is really no Hong Kong of old. China now fully controls that area, breaking a treaty with the UK.

Taiwan should take note and always remember what happened to Hong Kong because everyone knows they are next on the list.

ramesh31 50 minutes ago | parent

As I get older it becomes more obvious that the whole "moral arc of history" line is complete nonsense. Evil usually wins. Goodness is a strange outlier in all of history. It has to be fought for relentlessly, and is fleeting at best. The world as a whole now seems to be reverting to the mean.

camillomiller 46 minutes ago | parent

So, America good, China bad?

ramesh31 45 minutes ago | parent

>"So, America good, China bad?"

No. Democracy good, autocracy bad. America is speed-running toward the latter at this point.

jackb4040 25 minutes ago | parent

A lot of American liberals just want to turn the clock back 20 years, when they were still doing military interventions everywhere in the world but at least the political class would get on TV and pretend to feel bad for it.

In a world where technology has made gentle imperialism untenable, your system has chosen honest imperialism. Wishing you didn't have to deal with this contradiction won't work. You will have to choose between getting rid of the "autocracy" and keeping the empire.

rayiner 3 minutes ago | parent

[delayed]

boxed 43 minutes ago | parent

America? It was the UK.

KaiserPro 47 minutes ago | parent

> Taiwan should take note

It always had. The problem for them is that Trump is a bad ally. Their strategy is/was provide economic benefits to USA in return for a looming presence.

the implication being, don't try it china, its not possible, you'll lose too many people.

However thats not so much of a threat, partly because china has better anti-aircraft carrier weapons and partly because the US military has forgotten (well more accurately has fired the people who know) how to do logistics.

mytailorisrich 36 minutes ago | parent

This is a Western view of things.

Hongkong was built by the British and a symbol of foreign aggression and imperialism for all Chinese (including in Taiwan actually, at least if you are more on the KMT side). It was never "free" under the British, and in fact the LegCo was only created when the British knew that they would hand HK over to China.

Why should "Hong Kong of old" remain? Why should Chinese territory not under full Chinese control? (And by territory I don't mean some far away outpost, but really the heart of the country).

There has been a lot of noise about "decolonising the curriculum" in recent years, which some have criticised as "woke", but it is striking that the narrative on HK is still fully colonial-centric with little opposing voices.

In the West we are also oblivious to Chinese politics at historic scale. I.e., the conflict between communists and nationalists, and now also democrats. When there are conflicts about freedoms in HK it does not necessarily means against China, as the people are Chinese and in China, but against the communists. Likewise in Taiwan, although there is also an "independentist" "faction" there.

maxglute 4 minutes ago | parent

What happened in HK? Stupid nativist kids got disciplined for being pieces of shit, the treasonous ones jailed, and now post spanking they're partying it up on the mainland. TW should take note they're so so lucky to have that option, the alternative is Gaza.

boxed 1 hour ago | parent

This one time, turns out the colonialism was 100% on the side of moral right.

kstenerud 51 minutes ago | parent

> This one time, turns out the colonialism was 100% on the side of moral right.

No, it wasn't.

It was just coincidental that the UK still held a 99 year lease (from 1898) when the communists took over mainland China. How they got the lease in the first place is another matter.

boxed 46 minutes ago | parent

It was right every day after the communists took over China. That's quite a few years. And it was wrong of the UK to give back Hong Kong, as can be clearly seen today as China can't be trusted to honor the treaty, and certainly not be trusted to treat its citizens with a minimum of dignity.

vrganj 42 minutes ago | parent

Maybe how China treats its citizens is no business of the UK and the fact they were treated differently from other Chinese citizens in the first place is a historic injustice rooted in the UK's desire to force Chinese citizens into opium addiction for their own profit?

Why should the UK or you or I tell the Chinese how to do things? Who made us the ultimate arbiters of justice?

Starman_Jones 26 minutes ago | parent

Why should one party to an agreement hold the other party accountable to the terms of the agreement?

vrganj 24 minutes ago | parent

Why should anyone honor an agreement with the drug dealer that attacked you so they could keep selling drugs and stole some of your property in the process?

If you were mugged and then the perp finally left you alone if you swore to do his bidding for another fifty years, you'd also tell them what they want to hear I assume. But I doubt you would honor your agreement once they no longer had power over you.

Starman_Jones 1 minute ago | parent

Because China’s no different, and geopolitics don’t map well onto personal relationships, except that trust matters. Even in your example, it would be that the drug dealer attacked and stole from my great-great-great-grandfather, and now the drug dealer’s great-great-great-granddaughter is returning the property. It’s a bit foolish to treat her with the same level of distrust, and it would be even more foolish to be the one to break the agreement if I know that I will have to keep doing business with her in the future.

KaiserPro 51 seconds ago | parent

Why should the UK have any agreement with France, who for so long agitated and sponsored terorism in the UK?

Or germany that tried to invade not so long ago?

Or russia that killed parts of our royal family?

Times change, and the point about the treaty was guaranteeing the rights of the people that lived in the place now. In the same way that signing an extradition treaty with germany is about allowing citizens to enforce rights. (rather than an exploitative regime using it to punish political dissidents had it been in place in 1936)

the treaty meant that instead of having to evacuate all the hongkongers (only a small amount were "truly native") leading to a huge economic collapse and negating the entire point of getting the land back (and the island that was annexed through good old fashioned cannon)

thaumasiotes 29 minutes ago | parent

Note that the lease was on the mainland part of Hong Kong. The island was conquered outright and Britain formally owned it in perpetuity.

KaiserPro 8 minutes ago | parent

> How they got the lease in the first place is another matter.

Are you suggesting that flooding a country with opium so that the ruling classes would sell them tea, causing huge addiction, is somehow immoral?

Its not the british empires finest moment. mind you, france, portugal and the USA were very happy to collude with us to get decent trading terms.

(hence why there are some really well preserved portugese style neighbourhoods in Macau )

ii41 29 minutes ago | parent

Well no. This series of events happened exactly because the laws set up by colonial British would let loose a murderer.

Joshua Wong went to the streets for the murderer, not against him, by the way.

roenxi 1 hour ago | parent

> Millions of Hong Kongers were determined to keep the freedom they had enjoyed. The CCP has won, at least for now.

Fundamentally, I just don't see this frame as being a path to long term success for HK. If it is them v. the CCP: the CCP is alert to the political risk of HK, outnumbers them, controls the local military, has better propaganda and has more of a claim to success given that the British Empire has failed, the US Not-An-Empire seems to be struggling and morally bankrupt. At least the CCP has been delivering visible improvements in prosperity over the last few decades.

It is a tragedy to lose the jewel of Asia that was old school Hong Kong. But they really need a frame that acknowledges a bit of the present political realities - there'll need to be cooperation with major factions in mainland China. Probably within the CCP. I assume there is a liberalising faction of some sort.

garou 57 minutes ago | parent

USA propaganda. They try to weaken any democracy so they seems the least worst option. (Of course there is other "worst option" countries, who wants to live in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Rwanda, Uganda, Etc.? [allies of usa]).

phantomathkg 51 minutes ago | parent

Propaganda of what?

If you have read news you should have seen the HK courts now jail people left right and center for against CCP.

camillomiller 47 minutes ago | parent

This is bad American propaganda. I’m sorry but what Hong Kong are we talking about? And what advantages of democracy are we talking about? Unbridled inequalities fostered by a crooked ruling class with absolutely zero respect for international laws and diplomatic order? This narrative could work when the US were still disguising their true nature. Nowadays… not so much

est 44 minutes ago | parent

Here's how it started

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Poon_Hiu-wing

A guy commited homicide and walks free after 19 months in jail.

ii41 37 minutes ago | parent

And those "Free Hong Kong" protesters were for him, not against him.

sajithdilshan 41 minutes ago | parent

> We should not let Hong Kong fade away. We should not let Joshua Wong fade away. Or Jimmy Lai, or others

Who are we? is it the people living in HK? then it make sense. Otherwise why would anyone else (someone else living on the other side of the world) care? People have their own countries to fix let alone worry about other peoples problems.

jplrssn 7 minutes ago | parent

> Otherwise why would anyone else (someone else living on the other side of the world) care? People have their own countries to fix let alone worry about other peoples problems.

Do you care about your neighbours? How about people in the next town over? Why should that concern stop at the border of your particular nation state?

sajithdilshan 5 minutes ago | parent

I care about my neighbours because I know them. I don’t care about the next town because they might as well be same as people living in Tokyo.

Also it’s their town, neighbours or country. Let them fix it however they way, why should I care or mingle on strangers business

aurareturn 36 minutes ago | parent

I was living in Hong Kong when the protests first started and stayed through the entire 2019 year.

First, the vast majority of the locals hated the protests and didn't support them. This isn't reported by the western media. The media reported it as all HK people were being wronged.

Second, most of the protests were done by young people who lost hope in Hong Kong's ultra expensive housing and ultra stressful life. They live in tiny studio sized apartments with the entire family. Buying a home was out of reach for most young HK people unless they have financial help from parents. This was a key trigger in why the youth were protesting.[0][1][2] Again, this was never reported or mentioned by western media. Zoom out 10,000ft and the HK protests and Occupy Wallstreet protests aren't really all that different. Young people felt hopeless economically.

Third, Joshua Wong went to foreign governments and invited them to help him against China. Hong Kong belongs to China if you forgot. This is considered treason in just about any country. Imagine if BLM protestors physically went to China's CIA equivalent to ask them for help against the US government.

[0]https://johnmenadue.com/post/2021/04/hong-kongs-housing-cris...

[1]https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2019/8/11/a-lack-of-afford...

[2]https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ejsp.70001

lenerdenator 34 minutes ago | parent

> Hong Kong belongs to China if you forgot

If that's not a healthy attitude to take towards a territorial possession, I don't know what is.

garou 27 minutes ago | parent

ICE is so healthy…

lenerdenator 22 minutes ago | parent

You're right. Violent authoritarian thugs are bad. There should be systems in place to sweep them away. Ideally, through peaceful means.

I'd be interested to see what has been implemented with regard to this under the stewardship of the CCP.

netsharc 26 minutes ago | parent

A lot of Chinese do have a policy of "as long as we're comfortable (economically, etc), we'll let the government do whatever they want.", some justifying it by saying "society needs their government to be a strict parent".

It does seem most widespread revolutions only happen when the discomfort grows big enough (as the saying (1) goes, "civilisation is n missed meals away from anarchy" (n = a number below 10, I thought 3, but it's 9)).

It's interesting though, the CCP does chicken out. The last time that I remember this happening is when enough citizens in Beijing protested against their prison-like Covid restrictions, that they relaxed it within a day or two.

Same thing with Russians and the war: 2). Heck, Americans are anguishing but most are too comfortable/don't want to go through the discomfort to actually do anything against the rising fascism in their country.

1) https://quoteinvestigator.com/2022/05/02/nine-meals/

2) https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2022/06/war-of-the-worl...

ii41 14 minutes ago | parent

A lot of Americans do have a policy of "as long as we're comfortable (economically, etc), we'll let the government do whatever they want.", some justifying it by saying "they're doing it for the Middle Eastern people's freedom!"

rayiner 10 minutes ago | parent

> A lot of Chinese do have a policy of "as long as we're comfortable (economically, etc), we'll let the government do whatever they want.", some justifying it by saying "society needs their government to be a strict parent".

On a spectrum from like Appalachians at one end to the CCP on the other, most societies in the world are closer to the Chinese end of the spectrum. Appalachians will forgo civilization to avoid government. But most people in the world do want government to be a strict parent and maintain order and a well-functioning society. This is something that Americans completely do not understand.

rayiner 13 minutes ago | parent

> First, the vast majority of the locals hated the protests and didn't support them. This isn't reported by the western media. The media reported it as all HK people were being wronged.

Not everyone is an American, and that's fine. Asians--on average--just care more that things "just work" than having more freedom to faff around. It's like Apple users versus Linux users. The Chinese government is a good government for the things that most Chinese people actually care about: economic development, building infrastructure, keeping trains running, etc. At the end of the day, most Chinese people in Hong Kong aren't missing the political freedoms that Americans would miss in their shoes, and value the things they do have that the government is good at.

kurtis_reed 10 minutes ago | parent

> the vast majority of the locals hated the protests and didn't support them

Totally false

swiftcoder 35 minutes ago | parent

The return of Hong Kong to China is the first global news item I really remember from my childhood (the death of Princess Dianna shortly thereafter being the second). One really felt a shift in england that day: this then is the final nail in the coffin of the british empire.

I wish the whole thing had gone better for the folks on the receiving end. I was at university with a crowd who had grown up there seeing themselves as british, suddenly thrust into a strange nationality they didn't match their internal identity, and with no say in the matter.

rwmj 14 minutes ago | parent

One good thing is that we've extended UK residency and a path to citizenship to anyone who was born in Hong Kong before the handover (so everyone over about 30 y.o). It's pretty much the extent of what the UK could do under the circumstances - not much chance of changing the CCP to respect human rights.

m4r1k 35 minutes ago | parent

Through my hong kongese friends, I got pretty active in the 2019 umbrella protest. To me, one of the most impressive image of that era is the Kai Lan Egg japanese-styke manga use to show the world and the CCP what was going on.

https://china-underground.com/2019/10/28/hong-kong-protests-...

usui 12 minutes ago | parent

Wow that artist is nice. Reading that unlocked a memory of this animated video

https://youtu.be/RXAHywPLaD8 "Say No to China Extradition!"

jackb4040 35 minutes ago | parent

They really fucked up when they started wearing Maga hats and making signs asking Donald Trump to save them. Personal feelings aside, it was a strategic mistake and completely turned China and probably a majority of HK itself against them. And obviously they did not get the intervention they were looking for.

If you ask a foreign power to intervene in your protest movement, then fail, you should probably consider fleeing if you don't want to go to prison. Just calling balls and strikes here.

mytailorisrich 15 minutes ago | parent

Storming the LegCo and install a British HK flag [1] has to be one of the most idiotic and self-harmful thing one could do. That really made me wonder what those guys were thinking.

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-48832910