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LG responds to TV spying allegations

77 points OuterVale 1 hour ago 64 comments

zoobab 1 hour ago | parent

GDPR is forcing them to detail which private data they collect.

vincnetas 59 minutes ago | parent

they detail, but no one reads that anyways

P24L 56 minutes ago | parent

yeah, but if you want to know you can. and it isn't that everybody needs to analyze it.

dawnerd 45 minutes ago | parent

And if anyone didn’t watch GN’s video on it, it’s thousands of pages of text requiring a button press to scroll each. It’s designed for no one to read.

We should have laws that limit this kinda of “agreements”

cogman10 29 minutes ago | parent

They should flat out be banned for consumer electronics and goods.

It's insane that something you purchase can force a post purchase EULA before it can do anything.

Imagine buying a shirt but there's a 10 page EULA that says you agree to arbitration as soon as you break the seal. Or a blender, or an oven, or a refrigerator.

A lot of the "smart" electronics are in fact just that, they are sneaking in EULAs to use an app to connect to the device which robs you of your rights and protections as a consumer "Oh, the law says we have to give a 10 year warranty, but unfortunately you installed our app to work with your device which says you agree to forgo the warranty and pay us for the right to sue".

mitxela 54 minutes ago | parent

The US agreement says it too. They make you agree to them collecting it. It says they listen to everything that's said in the vicinity and you agree to inform any guests to your house that they're being recorded at all times. But nobody reads that.

stevetron 35 minutes ago | parent

Is it disclosed on the box the TV comes in?

germandiago 15 minutes ago | parent

I find deeply stupid to buy a tv that can potentially spy you but I am pretty sure they do it with phones also...

Every day I want to keep tech more fenced and far from me and only use it for what I need.

seanieb 1 hour ago | parent

The only reason TV’s are getting cheaper is the business model changed. Now your viewing data (and perhaps conversations) are part of their product offering.

derf_ 58 minutes ago | parent

I don't need the TV to be cheaper. I can afford to make up the difference for whatever few hundred dollars extra they would earn selling my data. But the expensive ones do this stuff, too.

fidotron 55 minutes ago | parent

So what you're saying is you're more valuable to advertisers . . . which means the amount you are worth to them grows with the amount you'd spend to avoid them.

Unless this stuff is made literally illegal they will keep doing it, because it's far more profitable than the alternatives. This is precisely why ideas like paying for a privacy respecting option on Facebook could never work.

klausa 47 minutes ago | parent

This is just straight up false.

OLED productions costs have fallen, and the yields have gotten better — displays of all kinds have gotten cheaper, not just TVs; OLEDs have started showing up in products they haven’t before for cost reasons, etc.

The manufacturers make some profit on the data they harvest, sure; but the biggest BOM costs of TVs have definitely also dropped sharply.

jurf 44 minutes ago | parent

Both can be true.

klausa 43 minutes ago | parent

The person I’m replying to said “the only reason”, so no; they can’t.

rpdillon 43 minutes ago | parent

It's probably mixed. I think Vizio's financial statements suggest they lose money on TVs and make it up on user data, but I'm not sure this holds for other manufacturers. I agree with you that TVs have gotten much cheaper to make, which probably incentivized the "collect it all" mentality, since their reach has increased and they can target more customers with lower prices.

dd8601fn 13 minutes ago | parent

The margin on tvs is slim.

Companies like Vizio make vastly more on the ads and data than they do on the tvs.

Some quarters they even take a loss. They took a $7m bath on hardware while booking about $120m on ads and data.

We’re never getting good tv’s back. It’s only going to get worse. Now they’re starting in on monitors.

The only lifeline would be consumer protection, which obviously won’t happen in the US.

Neywiny 53 minutes ago | parent

Bold from the verge, as clicking the link to go to the official statement took me through 3 redirect trackers as picked up by my browser/extensions (I think ubo to be specific)

Angostura 51 minutes ago | parent

It might be reasonable for a new source you don’t pay for to make money from advertising. Not so, the company that sells you a tv

jarym 49 minutes ago | parent

The real issue here is they’ve been dishonest and less than candid with their customers.

Trust broken, words out, and their statement doesn’t really do anything to mending that.

rpdillon 48 minutes ago | parent

LG's statement:

> ACR uses audio fingerprinting technology using the TV’s internal audio processor (not a speaker) to identify content and does not collect screenshots, screen recordings, video recordings, voice recordings, or other audio recordings from the TV.

So they are claiming that ACR is done entirely through audio processing, and no visual data from the screen itself is used? That...doesn't seem plausible.

This paper from 2024 investigated both Samsung and LG and found that they both capture screen images for ACR, and send the resulting hash (not the raw content) back to the manufacturer for identification.

https://arxiv.org/html/2409.06203v1

We're going to have to get saavy in pulling apart the distinction between "I look at everything and then send a nice summary back to my manufacturer" and "I send everything back to my manufacturer". As AI gets cheaper and more efficient, it'll be baked into everything, and will distill signal at the edge and send the good bits back to central command. I fear the legalese in the ToS will obscure this new way of "not collecting" user information.

ionwake 35 minutes ago | parent

After doing some investigation into my Bang Olufsen after some tech not working right apparently Dev mode on it allows "Most probable raw grab: ThinQ/SSAP on the LAN after pairing — ~960×540 JPEG. Live Plus/ACR: most probably sends a fingerprint, not a retrievable raw frame."

As per HN thread last week

cogman10 16 minutes ago | parent

> So they are claiming that ACR is done entirely through audio processing, and no visual data from the screen itself is used? That...doesn't seem plausible.

It's probably easier to do and every bit as accurate as just using a screenshot.

And it's still exactly what I don't want them doing. There's literally zero reason for LG to be building an advertising profile on me because I was foolish enough to buy one of their TVs. This isn't something that makes their products better, it's spying.

seanalltogether 45 minutes ago | parent

ACR is "not enabled by default"? Is this actually true or is it one of those weasley technicalities where the tv ships with it turned off, but once you connect the tv to the internet it turns on?

pluc 39 minutes ago | parent

Could just be enabled with a simple update post-unboxing to make it compliant with that statement. Off by default but enabled as soon as it connects.

functionmouse 30 minutes ago | parent

it turns on when you agree to the 197 page arbitration agreement

source: i made it up

dietr1ch 28 minutes ago | parent

I bet it's inadvertently enabled if you want to watch Netflix within 5 minutes of powering on the TV and rush through its setup

buzer 25 minutes ago | parent

https://youtu.be/6IFVTcM28KA?t=1370

They at least use a pattern where you need to accept terms of use & privacy policy when you download an app. Same screen has option to accept other agreements like ACR. However by default "select all" option is highlighted so people will often click that.

Slightly earlier on video they state that certain ad related things got turned on automatically during software updates.

ZoneZealot 23 minutes ago | parent

Technically when you turn the TV on for the first time, ACR is not enabled. Ergo, not enabled by default.

Sure, to use the TV you need to go past the EULA screen. And the button right in front of you, pre-selected - is agree to all terms. And after pressing OK, you now have ACR turned on. But you did that, it wasn't on by default.

Okay I can take my soul sucking corporate hat off now.

OptionX 16 minutes ago | parent

Soul sucking is right.

Its looks like the sort of stuff that happens to a tragic fantasy hero after a Faustian deal. Except they would've asked for riches, love or eternal youth, we on the other hand just want our middling-quality tv to work.

aeternum 44 minutes ago | parent

Note that their statement could also be true if they record 99% of the time. We need to start calling companies out for meaningless weasel statements like "We don't record continuously".

The majority of the problem is also simply the ability to record. Putting a remote control listening hardware on a device that runs a plethora of 3rd party apps and with full connection to the internet means that even if LG isn't controlling that mic, someone else will be.

seemaze 30 minutes ago | parent

As someone who hasn’t owned a television in decades, why would a TV even need a microphone in the first place?

How many other household devices have a microphone whose primary function is orthogonal to recording audio?

shrubble 26 minutes ago | parent

Every speaker can be used as a microphone if the circuitry is added to do so.

fodkodrasz 25 minutes ago | parent

Of course it is needed in a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen ...

Some "smart" TVs could do skype in the past, I'm not sure if they needed external headsets of worked with builtin mikes.

ygjb 23 minutes ago | parent

There are lots of good reasons that are used to paper over the abuse cases.

Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature when they enable voice commands for the user, and allow them to be used as voice assistants.

They also enable tvs with a camera and microphone to be used as video calling or audio calling interfaces. Used well we get star Trek view screens, used poorly we get little brother monitoring.

For those interested, it turns the tv into an interactive terminal for voice and camera powered video games, which are becoming more popular.

Unfortunately advertising and tracking incentives drive the abuse cases to the top and will crush the positive use cases :(

tmpz22 18 minutes ago | parent

> Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature

Made nearly moot by the presence of microphones in most (all?) modern remotes.

I say nearly moot because its worth noting the ability to operate a physical remote may itself be prohibitive to some.

So in effect, there are a multitude microphones in a modern LG environment.

germandiago 18 minutes ago | parent

1984 purposes.

illusive4080 43 minutes ago | parent

Easy solution. Do not connect your TV to the internet.

lokar 38 minutes ago | parent

I’ve had TVs that had important firmware updates that improved hdmi/atmos/etc compatibility

bubblemoth 37 minutes ago | parent

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the television would search for unsecured wi-fi or other ways of connecting to the internet without user input.

caymanjim 36 minutes ago | parent

I'm not sure if any TVs currently do this, but they could connect to unsecured public WiFi without the user doing anything, if one were available with no password. Fortunately such networks aren't that common most places, but it's not a big leap from the sketchy things LG and other companies do. They could also put SIMs in them if they wanted. Again, I don't know that any do that, but I wouldn't put it past them. I'm not that paranoid, but I don't trust them to be up front and ethical.

A TV not on the Internet is basically worthless these days, unless you have a third-party streaming device like a Fire or Shield--and then you're just moving the trust point from the TV itself to the streaming device, and the same concerns exist. Do you trust Amazon any more than you trust LG?

cogman10 23 minutes ago | parent

I'm not sure of the current state of it, but a few years back specturm was selling access to a private network based on consumer routers. Tmobile could partner with them so that one of their customers could go through spectrum instead of the cell towers in cases where connections were spotty.

That's exactly the sort of thing I could see LG piggy backing on. Your neighbor might have spectrum so the LG TV connects to it's private network to phone home.

caymanjim 10 minutes ago | parent

Xfinity/Comcast does the same thing. By default, the router they provide has a separate WiFi network supporting their distributed WiFi service. It's only for their customers, and it's not an open no-password network, but I'm certain they would offer it to any company that paid for access. They also have WiFi APs on telephone poles to broaden coverage.

If you live in a dense city, there's a good chance you can reach an open network. When I lived in midtown Manhattan, there were around 500 SSIDs reachable from my apartment.

Phemist 34 minutes ago | parent

Also debunked in the Gamer Nexus video. The TV will scan for public wifis and connect. Watching the video, it also seemed like a "missed opportunity" for LG to not create a mesh network of LG devices that would help eachother connect to the internet. So the LG device on your neighbours wifi might help your not connected TV to some tasty internet access. Or at least to unload its cache of A(V)CR fingerprints.

LG is truly an adversial party in all of this.

ZoneZealot 22 minutes ago | parent

They didn't actually say it does that. They said it could do that. It doesn't (yet).

ssgodderidge 31 minutes ago | parent

Agreed. I leave my tv disconnected from the internet, and connect my Apple TV instead… the default UX on most tvs is so much slower and add-riddled than Apple’s

HelloUsername 39 minutes ago | parent

Change url to source? https://www.lg.com/global/newsroom/news/statements/statement...

Also they provided a statement earlier to Gizmodo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49628328

Jcampuzano2 36 minutes ago | parent

> Audio used for wake-word detection is processed locally on the TV and, if no wake word is detected, audio is not converted to text, stored, or transmitted. Voice-recognition results and related technical logs may be generated as part of processing a voice command. These records are associated with specific voice interactions and do not indicate continuous recording of conversations occurring outside an active voice recognition session.

From their statement. This entire thing is contradictory. You cannot both say "not converted to text, stored, or transmitted", while at the same time saying the results may be generated and stored in the form of logs.

We need to hold companies responsible for this shit.

mordae 33 minutes ago | parent

Remember that one time when music CDs from Sony MBG installed a rootkit on your PC that continuously sent whatever MP3s you had on your PC back to them?

androiddrew 25 minutes ago | parent

How can we lock down a TV, still use it but trust we aren't being spied on?

gnomesteel 21 minutes ago | parent

Don’t give your TV internet access, and use an Apple TV.

herpdyderp 17 minutes ago | parent

I've gotten frustrated enough with my Apple TV that once my gen of hardware is no longer supported I'll replace it with a Raspberry Pi. I don't need fancy apps, just a browser for Jellyfin and (sometimes) YouTube. Any other incidental streaming service usage can also be done through a browser anyway.

joering2 16 minutes ago | parent

There it is. Not a single TV at my house ever seen a WiFi password. I add cheap Amazon FireStick and be done. Sure Amazon also spies on me but as far as I know original FireStick does not have built-in microphone and probably is not scanning/copying my LAN content to some cloud/back home. And at any time I can just throw it in the trash, get another $29 device. Once I/you plug WiFi password to your TV, there is now way of coming back.

notyourwork 18 minutes ago | parent

Leave it offline.

initramfs 22 minutes ago | parent

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-KgX9xyIRK8 "Can the CIA really spy on your phone?" He mentions TV and while it's off.

initramfs 17 minutes ago | parent

by the way, Intel's Quark chip is installed at least 3 times on each chipset and can run on a Minix OS when plugged in to the power and off:

from: https://web.archive.org/web/20201201175708/http://blog.ptsec...

Highly efficient" is 25mW at 33MHz. According to the Wikipedia page, it can run even when the PC is off but plugged in or connected to battery. an ARM Cortex M0-4 will use even less power in idle. All it needs is a tiny capacitor and bootrom and a secret flash storage to record audio and upload it once internet becomes available

"The Intel Management Engine always runs as long as the motherboard is receiving power, even when the computer is turned off. This issue can be mitigated with the deployment of a hardware device which is able to disconnect all connections to mains power as well as all internal forms of energy storage. The Electronic Frontier Foundation and some security researchers have voiced concern that the Management Engine is a backdoor.

Intel's main competitor, AMD, has incorporated the equivalent AMD Secure Technology (formally called Platform Security Processor) in virtually all of its post-2013 CPUs."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine

There are countless low or passive power audio devices since the Thing that can record and upload/bounce audio to receiveing devices: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)

runjake 22 minutes ago | parent

> "LG also said that its features like “Automatic Content Recognition (ACR), voice recognition, and interest-based advertising are optional,” and “not enabled by default.”

I am absolutely certain that ACR was enabled on our new TV by default, back some years ago. I am nearly certain their voice recognition, and advertising spying were enabled on our TV by default.

If none of this is truly "enabled by default" then this is a recent development.

I discovered this many years ago and did some deep dives, and unfortunately didn't publish anything about it. Lesson learned.

jimt1234 8 minutes ago | parent

A few months ago, my Roku TV started displaying these weird popups, saying something like, "Looks like you're watching college basketball. Did you know Roku-TV also has college basketball?" - something like that. Well, for the Roku device, yes, there was a setting I could disable, but (1) Roku pushed this 'feature' and made it default without my knowledge/consent, and (2) the config setting says the popups will stop, but it doesn't mention the data collection; my assumption is they're still collecting that data for their own data analytics purposes.

pastor_williams 19 minutes ago | parent

If you live in the United States you should find out who your state senator and representative are and write a letter to them asking them to propose, and support legislation prohibiting spying and increasing consumer privacy protection.

Kentucky passed HB 692 unanimously requiring smart TVs to ask permission if they are going to be spying on us. Ask your state legislature to follow their lead and pass some very popular consumer privacy protection.