35 points thelastgallon 53 minutes ago 62 comments

Avicebron 29 minutes ago | parent

Why don't we just build high speed electrified rail and busses. Why this rollout of electrified golf carts? My car is fast and fun to drive, that's part of it's job alongside getting me where I need to go.

If I just need to get somewhere, I want to take a clean fast train like Japan and then walk.

Lio 25 minutes ago | parent

Why can't an electric car be fun to drive? I have an old car I'm not planning on changing but electric cars I've driven just seem quieter, smoother and just better than ICE vehicles.

eigenspace 25 minutes ago | parent

Is this implication here that you think this car is an electrified golf cart? What makes you think that it wouldn't be fast or fun to drive? Most electric cars are extremely fun to drive due to their extremely high acceleration.

The development and building of newer, more efficient electric vehicles does not preclude the investment in more high speed electrified rail and busses. That complaint is a non-sequitor.

crote 9 minutes ago | parent

That depends on your definition of "fun to drive". Flooring it loses its charm within a week, and with the additional weight most EVs are awful when it comes to taking corners at speed.

EVs might be fun for drag racing, but if you want to drive on a circuit ICE is still the better option for now.

eigenspace 2 minutes ago | parent

Yeah I can't speak much to circuit racing (nor drag racing for that matter). I just know that the EV's I've driven have been fun to drive. I don't believe that most people talking about "fun to drive" are taking their cars to a racetrack either though.

I guess I haven't taken any corners agressively enough to really notice the problems you describe with weight.

I will say though that at least for non-racetrack scenarios, the extra weight isn't always as noticable as you'd think because the centre of mass tends to be extremely low relative to an ICE vehicle.

noir_lord 24 minutes ago | parent

More and more buses in my local mass transit system have moved to EV's (these specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_GB_Kite) as they age out their older buses and build out the infrastructure they needed.

I like them, they are smoother and quieter than the ones they replaced (in fairness that was the oldest diesel buses mostly), I don't like the new on board announcement "Next stop <X>, You are at <X>" style but that's because I'm not partially sighted/blind and it's a small price for making life a lot easier for those folks (and headphones exist).

oklahomasports 22 minutes ago | parent

How on earth would that work in Houston? Why on earth would people want to arrive at any destination soaked in sweat? Everyday on here someone makes a tendentious post about the viability of public transit.

eigenspace 18 minutes ago | parent

What does that have to do with being soaked in sweat? I could understand if they suggested everyone get around by bike, but this is just silly.

Electric busses and trains can have quite powerful and good air conditioning systems.

The problem with this in Houston is the disgracefully stupid urban layout that makes it very hard to effectively serve the city with public transit.

crote 8 minutes ago | parent

"No way to do this", says only country not doing it yet.

swiftcoder 19 minutes ago | parent

> electrified golf carts

I'm not clear how something that ran up to 138 kmph (85 mph) during an (intentionally low-speed) efficiency test, would be equivalent to a golf cart?

rtkwe 11 minutes ago | parent

That /just/ is bearing a lot of weight there. And what is Volkswagen going to do to build highspeed rail, they're a car company so they're making cars...

The US is trapped in a local maximum due to history, geography and finally politics. There's a lot of local resistance specifically to highspeed rail because to stay highspeed the trains usually bypass smaller local towns so they don't get the benefit but all the negatives of it's construction.

kotaKat 4 minutes ago | parent

> Why don't we just build high speed electrified rail

Good luck convincing all those Americans the rail line has to run through their property to freely give up the right-of-way. You're already dead in the first few hundred feet of rail when the first person says "fuck off, no" and starts challenging your eminent domain.

bryanlarsen 29 minutes ago | parent

That's 9 miles/kWh, compared to the Cybercab's 6.1 miles/kWh, compared to a typical EV at 3-4 miles/kWh.

Part of the difference may come from using the easier WLTP testing cycle than the EPA cycle the Cybercab probably uses, but only part.

serf 23 minutes ago | parent

what do you call a dieselgate for ev? hmm

coool interior and aero. all of the hyper efficient designs end up looking like the modern prius designs with the swan tail rear and hawk-beak nose.

klooney 27 minutes ago | parent

Bring back wheel covers!

swiftcoder 26 minutes ago | parent

Sign me up for all of these innovations in an actual production car. No idea why the whole market seems to be obsessed with ever-wider SUVs...

glimshe 21 minutes ago | parent

Because they are very comfortable. I'm not saying people should be obsessed about them, but that's part of why they are paying premiums for SUVs. Driving higher on the road on a wide car has a strong appeal for most people.

crote 14 minutes ago | parent

Ironically, larger crossovers have been among the least comfortable cars I have driven. Sure, they are a tad higher so someone with knee issues can more easily get in, but it seems most of the extra space they take up is somehow wasted. If you care about your rear seat passengers or carrying capacity, station wagons are far superior.

The whole "higher on the road" thing is a red queen's race: if everyone is higher on the road, nobody is. You've got slightly better sight yourself until all the other people upsize, and in the meantime you are blocking everyone else's sight. Considering SUVs are more expensive, the only people winning are the car makers.

axus 9 minutes ago | parent

A minivan has both high seating and tons of cargo space, after you remove the middle seats and fold the back ones.

rcMgD2BwE72F 13 minutes ago | parent

>Most people

Did you mean fat people?

I'm curious to know if the evolution of the average car size tracks obesity.

neom 6 minutes ago | parent

My little sister is a very petite woman, and drives a massive SUV, when I asked her why she said it makes her feel safer, I suppose that is a form of comfort. I'm 6ft tall and skinny, that's not particularly tall, but if I was a driver, I'd certainly consider the leg/head room of an SUV.

barrkel 10 minutes ago | parent

There's more usable space in station wagons, as a rule. And personally, if I'm cornering hard, I prefer to be closer to the road, not higher up...

swiftcoder 10 minutes ago | parent

As someone who lives in an area of Europe replete with narrow roads between stone buildings... standard SUVs have grown ~20cm wider in the last decade, and it sucks

brandonagr2 5 minutes ago | parent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Cybercab

Cybercab is most efficient electric production car, 165 Wh/mile

swiftcoder 2 minutes ago | parent

> Cybercab is most efficient electric production car

As impressive as the efficiency there is, I'm going to take issue with the "production car" part of this statement.

It's not like I can walk into a dealership and drive one of those bad boys home either...

helsinkiandrew 25 minutes ago | parent

Perhaps better info on VWs own press release:

https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/missio...

This is concept car that has no planned release date.

bryanlarsen 18 minutes ago | parent

Waymo should call up Volkswagen and place an order to ensure it goes into production.

Waymo should have a mixed fleet of 2 adult passenger vehicles like this one, 4-5 passenger models as well as some vans. It'll save them a lot of money, and will make streets safer by normalizing small vehicles.

tromp 23 minutes ago | parent

> Volkswagen just build the world's most aerodynamic road car ever.

A drag coefficient of 0.158 is not quite setting a record. Aptera's road-legal car has a coefficient of only 0.13, while Hyundai achieved a drag coefficient of 0.144 with the Aero Challenge concept car [1] (but it's not clear whether that vehicle is road-legal, or even what it looks like).

[1] https://www.azernews.az/region/245135.html

dasKrokodil 10 minutes ago | parent

Aptera is even more vaporware-y than this though.

aeontech 4 minutes ago | parent

Aptera is getting pretty close to shipping first customer cars this year, or at least seems to be, while this is a one-off research prototype - I think your comment is not quite fair.

BugsJustFindMe 22 minutes ago | parent

And with barely three millimeters of clearance you can effectively sweep the roads while you drive!

Wake us up when it can safely navigate a speed bump or enter a driveway without smashing against the bottom.

lorey 22 minutes ago | parent

They did something very similar 20+ years ago called XL1 to achieve 1l/100km, never made it into production. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_XL1

ketzu 20 minutes ago | parent

Based on the battery of 55kWh this is about efficiency, not packing more batteries:

> 6.48 kWh/100 km

At a constant 68km/h in perfect conditions (no up/down) and no additional consumers of energy (climate control).

Even on a real route they apparently got some useful stats with 7.51 kWh/100km including charging. Cool.

My car is around 17-20 kWh/100km at a 64kWh battery for a medium cost car in germany. I wish it was even close to that efficiency.

secult 3 minutes ago | parent

The lower is your state of charge, the more you are willing to reach the destination with your remanining capacity :) The time spend riding slower is usually not so different than when you drive normally, and it reduces the inconvenience of looking for a charger almost at the goal.

crote 19 minutes ago | parent

China has already solved the range problem by speeding up charging. When you can recharge 5 hours of highway driving in range during a 5-minute bathroom stop, an additional few hundred miles just isn't that useful anymore.

You could also go the other way and use the improved range to shrink the battery, but with the ongoing battery cost drop that's not exactly a gamechanger either - and fast-charging long-range Chinese EVs are available for their domestic market for a fraction of the cost of entry-level Western models as well...

Don't get me wrong, improving aerodynamics is a nice goal, but with the ongoing push towards gigantic SUVs there's zero chance anything even remotely resembling this concept car will ever see the light of day.

toomuchtodo 17 minutes ago | parent

I strongly believe these announcements are simply performance art for the capital markets to keep the share price higher than fundamentals would dictate.

Great, you've designed and prototyped the vehicle. When will they be built at the rate BYD and other Chinese automakers are building EVs? Until then, it's vaporware. All that matters is deliveries (China EV manufacturing is currently at a run rate exporting ~3M more EVs per year than VW sells in a year entirely regardless of powertrain [~9M]).

JumpCrisscross 1 minute ago | parent

If this is messaging fluff, it's aimed at regulators and politicians in Europe. Not shareholders.

projectileboy 15 minutes ago | parent

I partially agree, but this doesn’t totally address the range issue. There are big sections of the western US (for example) where the existing EV ranges are a dealbreaker.

bryanlarsen 10 minutes ago | parent

The western states are fairly well served by interstates, and all the interstates are now well served by chargers. Obviously there are routes that don't use interstates that aren't served, but in the continental US there is no spot that is more than 150 miles from a charger.

BryantD 7 minutes ago | parent

True, but as an EV driver I feel more comfortable when there are a couple of chargers available in an area — I run into too many chargers which aren’t working to enjoy relying on a single option.

JumpCrisscross 9 minutes ago | parent

> There are big sections of the western US (for example) where the existing EV ranges are a dealbreaker

Where? I live in Wyoming. The folks who have EVs around me are doing fine–there aren't many public chargers on a square-mile basis, but there aren't many places the public is randomly going. If you're travelling on a highway, you're passing chargers about half as regularly as you're passing gas stations.

My next vehicle will be an EV. (I'm waiting for non-Tesla self driving to get a bit better.)

bilbo0s 8 minutes ago | parent

I partially agree for a different reason.

Yes the Chinese have better infrastructure. Probably even better technology out in production available to them at this point. But so what? I mean it's great for the rest of the world. And that's awesome. But how are we plebes in the US ever gonna get access to those vehicles?

It's not as simple an issue as people make it out to be here in the US.

But yes. Good on Europe and China for pushing these technologies forward.

mvanbaak 13 minutes ago | parent

> with the ongoing push towards gigantic SUVs

this is not a global thing.

crote 4 minutes ago | parent

Perhaps not "global", but it sure seems to be pretty much the entire Western world by now. The US was the first to lose its sedans, but over here in Europe the cars are rapidly expanding as well.

alpineman 2 minutes ago | parent

Personally would never buy an SUV. Don't think I'm the only one even if that market still has some room to grow.

formerly_proven 4 minutes ago | parent

This car is roughly 3-4x more efficient than the average Chinese SUV, which typically consume well above 20 kWh/100 km (which energetically, though not in terms of emissions, approaches what an efficient compact ICE car consumes). It does this range on a 50-something kWh battery pack, instead of a three-digit kWh battery pack. Since consumption is so low, range added per minute of charging is up there. Everything can be smaller, lighter, made with less resources, creating fewer emissions, byproducts and downstream effects etc.

Yes, driving truck-sized cars with two-ton batteries the size of a french-door fridge also works and also easily moves 1.5 people per trip.

DiogenesKynikos 2 minutes ago | parent

Increased charging rate also means that fewer charging stations can serve more cars. One Megawatt charger can serve 4x as many cars as a 250 kW charger in the same span of time.

Sub-10-minute charging is going to be standard in new Chinese EVs very soon. There are already many new models on the market this year with charging times between 5 and 10 minutes. There will soon be cars with Megawatt charging speeds that sell for $15k.

As I understand it, Chinese manufacturers have optimized for a different set of parameters than European manufacturers. The Europeans emphasize range, but the Chinese are more willing to trade range for cost while optimizing charging rate.

philipallstar 19 minutes ago | parent

This just makes the Tesla Model S P90D, from 14 years ago, just look even better. 509km range (in the lab) and incredible acceleration, and looks pretty normal and practical. And it doesn't make you bring your own phone and bluetooth speaker for infotainment.

wlesieutre 2 minutes ago | parent

How is the infotainment tablet in a 14 year old Model S performing these days? Haven't they progressively worsened its performance through software updates and then sold you a hardware upgrade to fix it for several thousand dollars?

I'd rather just bring my phone, which gets replaced every 4-years or so anyway.

fullshark 18 minutes ago | parent

Maybe they learned from their blunder with the ID Buzz. At this point though I simply don't trust any legacy automaker when it comes to producing and supporting EVs for their lifetime.

fredley 18 minutes ago | parent

What do you do when your rear tyre gets a flat?

rtkwe 6 minutes ago | parent

The panel over them called a fender skirt comes off usually, this is far from the first car with skirts or spats. They used to be quite popular.

swiftcoder 5 minutes ago | parent

Presumably the faring panel comes off, just like on an early-model Honda Insight

mikestew 5 minutes ago | parent

Same thing you did sixty years ago when your Cadillac got a flat: take the cover off the wheel well.

https://photos.classiccars.com/cc-temp/listing/165/1814/3484...

fuzzfactor 4 minutes ago | parent

No different than the front tire, same thing as any modern car which does not carry a spare tire either.

jrmg 18 minutes ago | parent

Shape reminds me a lot of the first gen Honda Insight - also built to be low drag.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Insight#First_generation...

tester756 13 minutes ago | parent

Let's hope aerodynamics can save us from SUV disease

gbil 12 minutes ago | parent

It is stated that this was a single charge trip

>It’s also the most efficient EV in its class, consuming just 6.89 kWh/100 km without charging losses. >The VW Mission Efficiency covered 1,278 km (794 miles) on a single charge and still had 164 km (102 miles) of range left at the end of the trip.

But at 6.89kWh/100km for a 1278km trip equals 88kWh battery and it is stated later that the battery is a 54.9kWh one and that was recharged during the journey.

> The 54.9-kWh net battery was recharged only once during the journey....

It would be nice to have an article that makes sense from time to time...

josefresco 10 minutes ago | parent

I regularly drive 450+ miles to a family camp and need to stop at least once just to stretch my legs/change drivers/eat. The drive can take anywhere from 7-9 hours depending on traffic. 900 miles range is cool but it's not worth a huge price premium. Sort of like the Concord; while it's technically possible it's not worth the money.

rtkwe 3 minutes ago | parent

The extra range seems to mostly come from big increases in aerodynamic efficiency rather than just jamming a huge battery into the chassis so I'm not sure it would demand a huge premium, at least not because of the BOM.

m00dy 10 minutes ago | parent

don't get me wrong but VW is dead already.

maxglute 7 minutes ago | parent

Somehow it looks cool for a movie, but ugly for real life.