94 points theanonymousone 2 hours ago 51 comments

VCFundedGenYer 1 hour ago | parent

This falls apart completely if you’re like me and only see the list presented on brutalist.report which is strictly chronological and with zero algorithms.

perching_aix 1 hour ago | parent

Indeed, if you go out of your way to circumvent automatic story ranking, the particularities of automatic story ranking no longer affect you...

A capability available without visiting any third party sites, by the way: https://news.ycombinator.com/newest

I just hope you don't believe that somehow this magically allows you to escape bias. A (reverse) chronological sort is still a sort.

Retr0id 1 hour ago | parent

Looks algorithmic to me. Reverse-chronological with upvote threshold(?), where upvotes are correlated with sort rank on vanilla HN.

VCFundedGenYer 1 hour ago | parent

Again, not a thing if you are on the site I mentioned.

tptacek 1 hour ago | parent

If there's a vote threshold, it's still profoundly influenced by the HN algorithm, because front page exposure is the principal component in how many votes a story gets.

Waterluvian 1 hour ago | parent

There’s clearly decision-making going on because it’s not listing most HN posts. How is it deciding what not to show?

LastTrain 57 minutes ago | parent

Not to mention HN posts don’t spontaneously emerge out of the randomness of the cosmos.

Waterluvian 47 minutes ago | parent

Sure they do. Just with extra steps.

Remember that thing Carl Sagan told us: “if you want to complain about AI from scratch you must first invent the universe.”

Retr0id 1 hour ago | parent

Saying it a second time doesn't make it any more true.

oblio 1 hour ago | parent

That site's interesting, but it would be super helpful with some summaries of the stories and maybe of the comments. Though I imagine that would make it a LOT more expensive to host.

zahlman 39 minutes ago | parent

How does that differ from turning on showdead and going to /newest ?

tptacek 1 hour ago | parent

Presumably this has gotten way, way more complicated in the last 13 years.

onesandofgrain 58 minutes ago | parent

+ if (this.moneyPaid > 10000USD) = instaPostToFrontPage.

Barbing 41 minutes ago | parent

Have you come across a quantitative analysis of this?

onesandofgrain 14 minutes ago | parent

you gotta be kidding right?

tclancy 41 minutes ago | parent

Why?

hn_throwaway_99 21 minutes ago | parent

More powerful bots and more incentives to game the system.

bfung 24 minutes ago | parent

maybe dang and team can use the new system 1 classifier hotness like jev now ;)

icantevenhold 19 minutes ago | parent

I don’t think it’s much more complicated, they just tweaked it a little. I think the underlying system is still very simple

Liftyee 1 hour ago | parent

The penalties are interesting. It shows that the design goal is not to maximise interactions otherwise "controversial" posts should stay up. Still though, I wonder what's the point of deranking said posts. Minimise the potential for a flame war to hit critical mass? Stop people from perceiving HN as an argument-filled forum?

firesteelrain 1 hour ago | parent

Controlled narratives

SilentM68 39 minutes ago | parent

Yup, with just enough of an unmistakable ideological slant to force posts with differing views to take a Kharma nose dive. It seems that the addition of Kharma is proportional to posts that align with the overall narrative of the board post sentiment. In my case, I've noticed that some of my posts don't appear as originally created. Can't really confirm if this is inherent to the algorithm or just internal interference. The latter would be my guess. :(

skew-aberration 13 minutes ago | parent

Yep. Particularly obvious with comment ranking too.

Barbing 48 minutes ago | parent

Officially, should be protecting the site by keeping things interesting. (Just saying officially.)

Thanks to dang, links:

curiosity and repetition: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

downweighting follow-ups: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Karrot_Kream 47 minutes ago | parent

HN is already perceived as an argumentative forum. Now imagine if the ratio rule wasn't there. FWIW I find it just as effective on Bluesky and Twitter for myself. Ratioed threads are usually more heat than light.

Forgeties79 25 minutes ago | parent

Interesting I didn’t perceive it that way (I see the irony lol)

I’ve always seen it as a place that is quick to tell people to back off/treat each other with respect

consumer451 30 minutes ago | parent

> It shows that the design goal is not to maximise interactions otherwise "controversial" posts should stay up.

What I believe to be a less human-moderated version of the front page still exists on HN. It is interesting to compare it to the default. Both have their benefits.

https://news.ycombinator.com/active

anon_cow1111 1 hour ago | parent

Personally the first HN algorithm anecdote I really noticed was when the "stop destroying videogames' petition hit the front page a couple years ago. In the first hour it got a modest ~100 votes and comments with some organic discussion, so pretty typical for a good HN post. In the next hour it was dead and buried several hundred posts down.

I don't want to be a tinfoil hatter here, but I think certain industries have a lot more influence over this site than most people realize.

Capricorn2481 56 minutes ago | parent

This isn't very satisfying to me, as that ranks pretty low on the list of potentially damaging threads, don't you think? The genesis period of a petition? I see way more alarming stuff on here every day that further disillusions me to the biggest players.

I don't like Paul Graham, but I don't know if he really gives a shit what's happening on here. HN is not a super influential forum.

anon_cow1111 45 minutes ago | parent

>as that ranks pretty low on the list of potentially damaging threads, don't you think?

Yes, exactly. That's why it struck me as being so weird; something so innocuous on its face getting hammered that badly suggests some kind of outside coordinated influence.

(oh, and edit; apparently industry lobbyists had been holding private counter-op meetings with the EU Commission before said petition was even finished, so there's that. Not immediately relevant to this discussion but it does speak to what goes on behind the curtain in government topics)

Capricorn2481 2 minutes ago | parent

> That's why it struck me as being so weird; something so innocuous on its face getting hammered that badly suggests some kind of outside coordinated influence.

That seems like circular logic? Hasn't dang offered maybe reasons why a post might be suddenly hidden?

user_7832 13 minutes ago | parent

The thing is, it doesn't even have to be PG/HN doing this. Case in point, look at reddit being astroturfed by every company.

And also, look how good Graphene OS posts do, and now compare that to Stop Killing Games. These both have a similar overlap (unless you work at Google, both are interests/hobbies), yet GOS almost always hits front page (and rightly so), yet SKG failed to, despite being a Stallman-ian topic.

Capricorn2481 3 minutes ago | parent

Well I definitely think the site is heavily bogged, I was speaking more to moderation.

brudgers 11 minutes ago | parent

[delayed]

NiklasKoehler 1 hour ago | parent

The part of this I always forget is how lazily the ranking is applied. HN does not rescore the list on every page load. A story is rescored when someone upvotes it, and separately one story out of the top 50 gets picked at random every thirty seconds and rescored. Pages cache for another ninety seconds on top of that.

So the front page is never a clean rendering of the formula. A story that stops getting votes can sit at the wrong position for minutes at a time.

Which is also why the penalty figures in the post are ranges rather than numbers. Shirriff is inferring them from stories ranked lower than their raw score implies, and a story that simply has not been rescored recently looks exactly the same from outside. He lists that as one of his sources of error, along with neighboring stories carrying their own penalties.

compiler-guy 58 minutes ago | parent

Not sure when it started, but the second chance pool has moderators putting stories that didn’t get much attention when they were submitted directly on the front page.

There may be some survivor bias here, but second-chance stories seem very front-page sticky to me. At least those I have recognized.

brudgers 7 minutes ago | parent

[delayed]

kens 45 minutes ago | parent

Author here. I don't know why this popped up 13 years later, but hi :-)

Barbing 42 minutes ago | parent

Still relevant! Very interesting topic.

tclancy 42 minutes ago | parent

Just so they could penalize it, obviously.

iercan 8 minutes ago | parent

was very interesting :)

PreciousH 30 minutes ago | parent

weird that posts with lots of comments are also penalized though, the `controversy` reasoning is not solid enough for me.

hn_throwaway_99 21 minutes ago | parent

It's not just "lots of comments" though. It's more comments than upvotes. You may disagree, and it may not be a perfect metric, but in reality I think it's works very well. 90+% of the time when I look at a post with tons of comments and a relatively small number of upvotes, it's flamewar central.

user_7832 16 minutes ago | parent

True, but there's that 10% posts where there's (eg) a good cancer breakthrough, and it's two guys going back and forth on the methodology adding a lot of comments. Not always, but not never either.

I really wish there was a way to "mark" such posts as "high quality, ignore comment to vote ratio" just like how you can vouch a comment. Enough such marks and it gets auto turned off the flamewar parameter.

ChrisMarshallNY 19 minutes ago | parent

Note the trajectory of any stories about the IDScan drivers' license leak. They don't stay up long, after US East Coast SoB time.

NDlurker 16 minutes ago | parent

Check out this thread I made. It quickly moved to the top of the front page but then somehow moved down to like page 3, even though it had more upvotes and discussion than all or most of the other threads posted that day.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49171656

syngrog66 21 minutes ago | parent

I concluded long ago that voting rings are active here, along with paid/inauthentic upvote farms.

vforgione 20 minutes ago | parent

What led to that conclusion? Genuinely curious.

dotancohen 6 minutes ago | parent

I independently came to that conclusion after noticing that my comments on some controversial subjects will slowly acquire upvotes, then nose dive 2 or 4 votes very quickly. At first I thought that some mods might have double-value votes (Hi Cowboy Neal!) but then I realized it's sometimes 4 successive downvotes, not only 2.

seizethecheese 9 minutes ago | parent

> I observed that many websites appear to automatically get a penalty of .25 to .8: arstechnica.com, businessinsider.com, easypost.com…

Easypost is a YC company, for those who claim hacker news moderation favoritism

mberning 7 minutes ago | parent

Great analysis. I think there must be even more going on in the comments section. There are a lot of shenanigans especially on “controversial” topics.