YHK - yet another hacker news clone

OpenAI Feared "Optics" of what might appear on Hacker News

96 points papergirl 2 hours ago 47 comments

papergirl 2 hours ago | parent

Newly released court filings quote an OpenAI researcher saying: “I was just worried about optics - i.e. 'openai uses copyrighted data from sketchy russian website’ showing up on HN would be unfortunate."

That's just one of several interesting quotes that have surfaced in documents from the Authors Guild's lawsuit against OpenAI.

swiftcoder 48 minutes ago | parent

It's good to know we all live rent-free in Dario Amodei's head

optimalsolver 45 minutes ago | parent

You might be thinking of Demis Altman.

lensecat 29 minutes ago | parent

Think they're referring to the following, when Amodei was still working for OpenAI:

'OpenAI Feared “Optics,” Not the Law – “Dario Amodei, OpenAI’s then-Research Director, responded that ‘as a training set [LibGen is] a bit sketchier.’ [OpenAI researcher Sam] McCandlish explained: ‘I was just worried about optics – i.e. ‘openai uses copyrighted data from sketchy russian website’ showing up on [Hacker News] would be unfortunate.”'

gizajob 6 minutes ago | parent

Same as all the world’s copyright text lives rent-free in Claude and ChatGPT.

locknitpicker 26 minutes ago | parent

> Newly released court filings quote an OpenAI researcher saying: “I was just worried about optics (...)"

As a side-note, most orgs already cover the need to STFU in their training material for new hires, particularly how personal comments should not and cannot represent the company. I'm sure this lawsuit will be explicitly mentioned in upcoming versions of this sort training material in multiple orgs.

Skyy93 40 minutes ago | parent

This is a lobby organisation using only the pieces and bits they like to push their own agenda.

"sketchy russian website", how about using some more clear description like: A library for sharing books and articles that should be partly public domain because they were paid for by the public. Only some of the material is copyrighted by authors. However, some of their work is so old that it is not reprinted anyway.

But of course such an explanation would not click.

I also don't see a problem with statements about making people jobless. Imagine if every robotic or automation company advertised like this: Yeah, you'll buy tons of expensive robots and still rely on expensive labor from real people without any efficiency gains.

lensecat 32 minutes ago | parent

"A lobby organisation?" Of course a single author would not be able to afford facing a multi billion dollar company on their own? And the "sketchy russian website" quote is from OpenAI employees themselves? What are you on about?

Skyy93 23 minutes ago | parent

First, it's still a lobbying organization, so it's their job to make exaggerated claims, like a union in a company or any other organization with a political purpose. My first point was to highlight that it's not neutral or news related. It's fine that they have their opinion, but it's also my right to say that they're biased.

The second thing underscores my point. They use one line and think they've made a great point because one employee called LibGen sketchy. This site has been around since the 2010s, and it has helped many people do research. It's not just a sketchy website that suddenly appeared and is always doing bad things. I think a more nuanced stance is necessary.

latexr 12 minutes ago | parent

> They use one line and think they've made a great point because one employee called LibGen sketchy.

No, you are using one line from the post to discredit them. The release has more than that and it’s not the only communication they made on this matter nor is there any indication it will be the last, it’s just the current one.

Skyy93 8 minutes ago | parent

They are having it in the subtitle. In general their whole article is about two main points, first the use of stuff from Libgen, second the points of making people jobless. Three of their points are about the jobless thing two about the LibGen.

About LibGen, there might be more discussion - fair. However, the second argument is no real discussion IMO. Why is putting people out of work suddenly a bad thing? Since when do we argue this when talking about automation?

TeMPOraL 3 minutes ago | parent

There is nothing to discuss about LibGen, really. I don't read this as OpenAI employees even believing LibGen is sketchy. They were worried about optics, because LibGen itself is Russian and does look a bit sketchy, and at the time - much like today - it was easy to make it a headline that makes people pattern-match to "troll farms".

(And then Russia invaded Ukraine, turning any association with .ru things into potential corporate suicide.)

abroszka33 32 minutes ago | parent

Any source that this was a library? Even then that would still raise a question if OpenAI is a Russian organisation or not to access that library with good faith.

I think they just used a Russian torrent site.

Skyy93 29 minutes ago | parent

They mention it in the text, its this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Genesis

>Microsoft knew about OpenAI’s use of LibGen as early as April 2019

spwa4 29 minutes ago | parent

Just go look: https://libgen.im/ (may be blocked by your isp, just find an alternate URL somehwere)

(note: https://z-library.sk/ is prettier/nicer)

ZeWaka 28 minutes ago | parent

They're talking about LibGen, per the article.

Andrew_nenakhov 18 minutes ago | parent

apparently, the website in question is libgen.io (appears to have been taken down now), currently it has lots of mirrors like libgen.im , libgen.com.de, etc.

4ndrewl 26 minutes ago | parent

"This is a lobby organisation using only the pieces and bits they like to push their own agenda."

Do you have any evidence of them being a lobby organisation (as opposed to OpenAI for example which spends millions of dollars hiring actual lobbyists)

Skyy93 20 minutes ago | parent

Simply look at the Wikipedia article?

>The group lobbies at the national and state levels on censorship and tax concerns, and it has initiated or supported several major lawsuits in defense of authors' copyrights.

TeMPOraL 7 minutes ago | parent

> Do you have any evidence of them being a lobby organisation

Have you looked at their name?

quaintdev 25 minutes ago | parent

It's just sad that this is the top comment on Hacker News. Why are we giving free pass to these tech companies? Why are we trusting these CEOs when they have repeatedly broken laws? Remember Aaron Swartz and the fate he suffered? Why is big tech getting away with so much more?

Skyy93 21 minutes ago | parent

Then you misunderstood my point. I think copyright law should be significantly changed and the current system hurts us all.

ares623 18 minutes ago | parent

Sure. But the fact is they broke current existing laws, with known punishments with precedents. Same as a new law doesn't retroactively punish someone, then a new law shouldn't absolve someone before it's passed.

Skyy93 14 minutes ago | parent

>A copyright is a type of intellectual property that gives its owner the exclusive legal right to copy, distribute, adapt, display, and perform a creative work, usually for a limited time.

The more interesting question is IMO if AI training actually falls into one of these cases. You can read a book and also copy it, but you do not do because of the law. However, you have the ability to do so. Is having the ability to do something already forbidden?

TeMPOraL 15 minutes ago | parent

> Remember Aaron Swartz and the fate he suffered? Why is big tech getting away with so much more?

Why are you turning him into perpetuum mobile in his grave?

Do you really believe Aaron would be arguing against AI companies and for publishing / recording guilds on the grounds of intellectual property claims?

No, it's the tech community that did a sudden about-face, and is now all "friendship ended with free access to information and technologies enabling people; now RIAA is my best friend", and this move is as dumb as that meme (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/137501417/Friendship-ended).

quaintdev 2 minutes ago | parent

> Do you really believe Aaron would be arguing against AI companies and for publishing / recording guilds on the grounds of intellectual property claims?

Yes because the world's information is getting locked behind proprietary models owned by few companies. Do you really think all this concentration of information is a good idea?

> friendship ended with free access to information and technologies enabling people; now RIAA is my best friend

That argument is as dumb as the meme you are referring to.

MattGaiser 9 minutes ago | parent

We tend to accept lawbreaking if it is for a product we want.

There are several multi billion dollar companies where the founding thesis was “what if we just ignore the law?”

trompetenaccoun 16 minutes ago | parent

It can be a bit confusing due to the terrible style of the article (ironic given the source) but it seems the "sketchy russian website" part is a direct quote by Anthropic's Sam McCandlish. And apparently Dario Amodei referred to it as sketchy as well.

I find the brazenness of saying this while running what's arguably the largest copyright theft operation in human history astonishing. If libgen is "sketchy", then what is OpenAI?

qarl 13 minutes ago | parent

> the largest copyright theft operation in human history

Many people think that it was fair use: training is akin to reading, not copying.

Especially the courts.

trompetenaccoun 3 minutes ago | parent

That's not been legally established, the litigation is ongoing. And if mere downloading and reading of copyrighted material were legal, how come torrent users have been fined for it in the thousands?

The law is the law, there can't be different law for corporations with billions in backing. I don't agree with current copyright laws btw and think they should be changed. However, they probably should have lobbied for that before illegally downloading all this material.

TeMPOraL 9 minutes ago | parent

They didn't believe it was sketchy. They were just worried that the commentariat on HN will frame it in a dumb, manipulative way like that.

Judging by how AI threads look like for the past year, they were absolutely right to be worried.

> largest copyright theft operation in human history

In fact, you're doing exactly that right here.

latexr 4 minutes ago | parent

“Sketchy Russian website” is part of a quote by Sam McCandlish (who worked at OpenAI), not the Author’s Guild characterisation.

Also, defending it on the basis that some books on libgen are public domain is a poor excuse, like claiming people use The Pirate Bay to download Linux ISOs. Even if some of that is true, we all know that use case is not the popular one.

shaunpud 35 minutes ago | parent

https://web.archive.org/web/20260927062011/https://authorsgu...

Krasnol 8 minutes ago | parent

Thank you.

alansaber 33 minutes ago | parent

Not even openai want to get flamed on show hn

monster_truck 32 minutes ago | parent

I could not care less

hnfong 31 minutes ago | parent

Can we fix the title? This is clickbait for HN, the actual article's title is "Unsealed Briefs in Authors’ Case v. Microsoft/OpenAI: Top Execs Knew Their Mass Book Piracy Was Illegal And Would Put Authors Out of Work"

hn1rig3rak 22 minutes ago | parent

Pulled datasets off libgen for a corpus once and it's overwhelmingly in-copyright textbooks, the public domain framing doesn't really hold up.

whatever1 11 minutes ago | parent

Is our opinion that important ? Nice !

handoflixue 4 minutes ago | parent

It's wild how much weight "they're destroying jobs" has.

I dare say that car manufacturers are aware of their impact on the horse and buggy industry. Calculator manufacturers wrecked the livelihood of mathematicians and accountants.

Technology is in the business of putting people out of work, by inventing better ways of doing things. Or rather, any time you invent a better way of doing things, that's fundamentally going to disrupt all the businesses built around older technologies.

cisc 3 minutes ago | parent

> Technology is in the business of putting people out of work, by inventing better ways of doing things

Why is book piracy a better way of doing things?