YHK - yet another hacker news clone

Zig v0.17.0

167 points ErenayDev 2 hours ago 81 comments

jabedude 2 hours ago | parent

How is Zig doing as a project? I remember they took a hard line against AI

abc42 1 hour ago | parent

It looks like they're spending 5 months what should be a 1 month job these days.

onlyrealcuzzo 1 hour ago | parent

Filed a compiler bug related to dwarf tables that screws up debugging and line of code coverage that they completely ignored, just because I mentioned that I had every LLM check it to confirm it's a bug, since all I know is what kcov and every coverage tool generates incorrect coverage data for my repo, for 100% certain.

bendmorris 1 hour ago | parent

Sounds like you violated the clearly stated project rules and admitted to it. Are you surprised that they're not engaging with you?

IshKebab 1 hour ago | parent

Wow I thought surely they wouldn't object to using AI to confirm bugs, but they really do.

Tbf I guess as a popular open source project not using AI to fix bugs, they probably already have more open bugs than they can ever fix so it doesn't really help them for people to find more.

I would imagine his bug was actually ignored just because Zig has 2700 open bugs, rather than some AI policy violation.

bendmorris 1 hour ago | parent

Claude Code has 13.4k open bugs: https://github.com/anthropics/claude-code/issues

Show me a popular open source project that doesn't have a large number of open issues and I'll show you one that has a triage bot auto-close them.

esafak 1 hour ago | parent

Some have both, despite using an auto-close bot! OC is at 4.6K open and 24K closed issues. https://github.com/anomalyco/opencode/issues

acedTrex 1 hour ago | parent

The popular LLM projects have infinitely many more bugs than the zig project does this is a ridiculous message.

audunw 1 hour ago | parent

They don’t, at least not any more. Andrew Kelley has explicitly stated that he sees the value of using LLMs to uncover bugs. Inspired by sqllite project.

https://youtu.be/zwi5b5xSsKA?is=PTjJJjSnVMdRuZag

They may just be taking the slow route of rejecting by default until they can be sure that the usage of LLMs provides long term value. I don’t see anything wrong with that. If you’re writing robust software, using LLMs at this stage is a bit of a gamble. We don’t fully know the long term effects on code quality yet.

saghm 1 hour ago | parent

Ah, so yet another language in the long line of "I'm smart enough to use this but you the user are not"

unleaded 1 hour ago | parent

Project maintainers know what level of AI use is acceptable for themselves, and quantifying it and enforcing it for random contributors is very difficult.

unclad5968 1 hour ago | parent

It's a violation of project rules to confirm bugs with AI?

bendmorris 1 hour ago | parent

Read it yourself: https://ziglang.org/code-of-conduct/

sigmar 1 hour ago | parent

>If you use a chatbot to give you advice on a comment on the issue tracker, that comment is unwelcome.

>No LLMs for finding bugs.

>No talking about use of chatbot/LLM services.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- it's a cult that bans dissent

alexrp 1 hour ago | parent

For the record, there isn't even uniformity of thought on LLMs within the core team, let alone the broader Zig community.

sigmar 1 hour ago | parent

If there's an edict that no one is allowed to bring up the topic, how can someone change this part of the code of conduct?

Asking non-rhetorically. It seems like one position "ai in any circumstance = bad" is being enforced. The commenter above didn't even understand why he was ignored.

alexrp 29 minutes ago | parent

> If there's an edict that no one is allowed to bring up the topic, how can someone change this part of the code of conduct?

To clarify, do you mean someone who isn't part of the core team?

tolerance 35 minutes ago | parent

> The Zig community is decentralized. Anyone is free to start and maintain their own community, which is not subject to these rules.

jibalt 1 hour ago | parent

Yes ... pretty damn stupid.

cabaalis 32 minutes ago | parent

"NO LLMs for finding bugs" is easier written as "Don't use the tools your adversaries will"

I've written code a long time and that's probably the dumbest rule I've seen.

phoghed 1 hour ago | parent

Yeah, the maintainers of a DOA hobby project should certainly be allowed to run it however they want imo

saghm 1 hour ago | parent

Pointing out something that is not good doesn't require surprise at the fact that it happened

giancarlostoro 1 hour ago | parent

Reading their comment it sounds like they wanted to confirm the bug existed with AI, not sure they ever said they had AI write the code. Why have such a dumb policy?

acedTrex 1 hour ago | parent

> breaks the project rules

> gets ignored

Who could have forseen this.

UncleOxidant 1 hour ago | parent

If they really insist on no LLM involvement at all then they're going to fall behind and lose out. Your LLM use case seems really very conservative - you didn't write any code with it, you just use it to confirm the bug. There are many OSS projects that are also taking a similar hardline against LLMs - people are going to fork them and then move on. I've had LLMs fix bugs/add features to a couple of projects like this and, well, they're missing out on the fixes/added features that I'm using locally.

acedTrex 1 hour ago | parent

They are doing fine, all this "left behind" talk has no basis other than cope.

0c3ca83 5 minutes ago | parent

People keep promising me that I'll be left behind, but somehow it never seems to happen.

doctorpangloss 1 hour ago | parent

Their policy is immature. Clicking little upvote and downvote buttons is immature. Better to just lie and duplicate the issue.

senderista 51 minutes ago | parent

Seems like "parallel construction" where you show you actually understand and can explain the issue independent of an LLM would be the way to go. No need to mention how you found the bug as long as you can explain what the bug is, why it matters, and how to repro.

bigstrat2003 43 minutes ago | parent

Lying to get around a project policy you disagree with is immature. They have the right to run things the way they want, either accept their rules or leave the project be.

0c3ca83 7 minutes ago | parent

If it's generating detectably incorrect code, why do you need an LLM to tell you it's a bug?

greggoB 1 hour ago | parent

Can you offer any specifics? The ToC looks quite extensive, which to me indicates a lot of design decisions needed to be made (probably involving many people) and unclear how that process might be accelerated by AI.

Unless you're suggesting the language design should also be vibed together?

nvme0n1p1 1 hour ago | parent

> Unless you're suggesting the language design should also be vibed together?

Sounds like a fun little project, have a bunch of AI pushers fork Zig and see if they can do a better job. I want to see results, not snarky HN comments. After all this progress, ChatGPT should be able to one-shot a better language since AI is so good now... right?

spankalee 1 hour ago | parent

One-shot, no, but there are a bunch of people pretty much solo-building their personal ideal language with AI and it's going quite well. You need to know just enough about language design to be dangerous, but you don't need to be a seasoned pro.

I'm doing it myself: https://zena-lang.dev/

Karrot_Kream 1 hour ago | parent

Been thinking about doing this myself (did some PL in grad school but it's been a long time), but I find myself wanting to reach for a Scheme (using macros to grow the language I want) and customize it or build something atop Janet.

Curious why you wanted a more ML / Rust / Scala inspired syntax. (Personal preference here is totally valid btw, just curious.)

0c3ca83 2 minutes ago | parent

It seems like such a strange thing to do, building a language that you aren't going to write by hand. It's guaranteed to perform worse at higher cost, fill up a lot more of the context window, and burn a ton more reasoning tokens.

If you're using AI, a language with a large training set is going to win.

agentultra 1 hour ago | parent

Claude can’t one-shot a C compiler.

None of these systems can. They need enormous training. They need alignment and reinforcement. They need harnesses. And most importantly they need a human that knows how to write and develop a C compiler.

The ISO specifications are not sufficient. Neither are the System V guidelines. Not even spec tests and compcert.

IshKebab 1 hour ago | parent

Nobody is one-shotting big projects. Even humans can't do that.

DASD 57 minutes ago | parent

Fabrice Bellard might be an exception.

UncleOxidant 1 hour ago | parent

You're not going to one-shot it, but over the course of a couple of months of evenings you could come up with something usable/interesting if you manage the LLM well.

mg74 1 hour ago | parent

Slow and steady wins the race

mathisfun123 1 hour ago | parent

in tech? really?

nvme0n1p1 1 hour ago | parent

Yes, the Lindy effect applies in tech too.

Zak 1 hour ago | parent

In programming languages, usually. Building software on top of a rapidly-changing language is not often a recipe for success.

combobyte 39 minutes ago | parent

Language design and implementation is much more in the realm of actual computer science than it is "tech"

re-thc 1 hour ago | parent

Anthropic levels of slowness (pacing)?

jibalt 1 hour ago | parent

Parables aren't reality.

saghm 1 hour ago | parent

And apparently ignores legitimate compiler bugs on the way that someone happened to ask an LLM to double check their diagnosis

dingdingdang 1 hour ago | parent

Yep, it's true, but the reality of what it would take to actually fork and commence with healthy use of AI alongside with the elusive soft/hard stance needed to lead technically and socially is probably a bigger challenge than anyone is willing to take on! Soo.. slow and (rather?) well it goes for Zig.

DASD 1 hour ago | parent

Seems to be C++ing which is disappointing. Looking more at C3 and Odin for cases where I'd hoped Zig to land.

deagle50 1 hour ago | parent

Odin scratches this “stick shift” itch for me better than anything else. Highly recommended.

zer0-c00l 1 hour ago | parent

can you elaborate on what you mean by "C++ing"?

sureglymop 1 hour ago | parent

C3 is honestly so good and a bit underrated.

silisili 1 hour ago | parent

It's my favorite of the new round of languages by far. I just wish it had a bigger ecosystem.

yurish 23 minutes ago | parent

In what sense are the C++ing? Too complicated or what?

agentultra 1 hour ago | parent

They seem to be doing fine. Tigerbeetle and Ghostty are two projects that continue to do well and are written in Zig. The foundation’s funding also seems to be doing well. They are continuing to make releases.

acedTrex 1 hour ago | parent

Im really enjoying using it, works great tbh

luiwammus 1 hour ago | parent

Although I understand that upgrading LLVM version is a lot of work, it's a bit frustating that loop vectorization is still disabled.

alexrp 1 hour ago | parent

The fix could not be backported to LLVM 22 because it changed the LLVM library ABI. We also could not skip straight to LLVM 23 because that would make life harder for distro package maintainers.

vitaminCPP 38 minutes ago | parent

You should not worry. They said they would make a short release cycle for updating to 23.

audunw 1 hour ago | parent

Would recommend checking out the Zig state of the (tagged) union as well.

https://youtu.be/zwi5b5xSsKA?is=PTjJJjSnVMdRuZag

It may surprise some people here to see that Andrew is warming up to using LLMs to discover bugs (inspired by results from SQLlite) and considers it a tool on the path to getting to bug free software.

saghm 1 hour ago | parent

> It may surprise some people here to see that Andrew is warming up to using LLMs to discover bugs (inspired by results from SQLlite) and considers it a tool on the path to getting to bug free software.

Someone in the thread below says their bug was closed because of mentioning that they use AI to confirm the bug they had encountered. Is he going to go back and reopen all of those now that he learned what pretty much everyone else already knew?

mjburgess 1 hour ago | parent

There's a difference between Opus 4.5 and Astra 6

f33d5173 1 hour ago | parent

With regards to whether when it finds a legitimate bug, it should be given weight?

mjburgess 21 minutes ago | parent

With regards to whether a blanket ban has a payoff

idle_zealot 58 minutes ago | parent

> Someone in the thread below says their bug was closed because of mentioning that they use AI to confirm the bug they had encountered

I don't know about this particular case, but if I saw someone report a bug and as evidence claim they had X Y and Z LLMs verify it I would be pretty upset. If you're going to use an LLM to make a replication, just do that and give me the replication, don't point to your notoriously error-prone tools as though they lend your report credence.

It's in a similar vein to people who reply to questions with "well Claude says: <chat transcript dump>"

xdavidliu 8 minutes ago | parent

> It's in a similar vein to people who reply to questions with "well Claude says: <chat transcript dump>"

or substantially worse: "<chat transcript dump>"

vitaminCPP 29 minutes ago | parent

citation needed

itishappy 25 minutes ago | parent

Why? Shouldn't everybody already know that using AI to find bugs for oneself is amazingly efficient, but using AI to submit bug reports for others is quite the opposite. Burden of verification and all.

mwkaufma 14 minutes ago | parent

Warming up to LLMS... explicitly _after_ full branch-coverage and fuzzing.

fukaiall 7 minutes ago | parent

I personally think using AI is of no problem for certain cases. It is absolutely pissing off when someone tries to generate slops that too verbose to review only to increase the complexity of the codebase meaninglessly.

ai_critic 1 hour ago | parent

> Please consider a recurring donation so that we can offer more billable hours to our core team members.

Just don't be surprised if the project BFDL talks shit about you or your company later.

(Still a good language though, credit where credit is due.)

dimator 1 hour ago | parent

would you rather the reverse to be true? if someone donates enough that's sufficient for the BDFL to silence their opinions?

preommr 47 minutes ago | parent

yes.

A simple, "this entity is a sponsor, and therefore there is a conflict of interest and we will not comment on recent controversy" is enough.

If it's big enough, refuse to take further contributions.

I know it's not entertaining, but that's why we have video games.

ai_critic 22 minutes ago | parent

Back in a more adult age, the way that this was handled was "We've benefited from our past collaboration, but we believe a new direction is needed going forward."

For some reason--COVID brain rot, poorly-socialized people coming online, general increase in viciousness in the population, who knows!--people have forgotten the utility and purpose of boring polite manners and communication.

senderista 49 minutes ago | parent

I wouldn't consider donating until the project leader has demonstrated considerably more personal maturity.

internet2000 42 minutes ago | parent

Any change to the AI policy?

vitaminCPP 31 minutes ago | parent

I'm always impressed by Zig's targets support. I'm starting to think that it might be the only language that competes with C on this regard.

I'm looking forward to see what the new build integration can unlock on the tooling side.

What I'm looking for the most for the next release(s):

- New stackless coroutine IO implementation

- First class fuzzer tooling