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Why Common Lisp is now the best programming language

80 points misterchocolat 2 hours ago 95 comments

misterchocolat 2 hours ago | parent

Happy to discuss

sroerick 1 hour ago | parent

I was just explaining this exact thing to somebody a couple days ago - even used ERP as the example. Hear hear, sir

tzmudzin 51 minutes ago | parent

... and I think you will both find it intellectually stimulating to explore the complexity behind ERP systems that makes a common DSL near impossible across industries, or as businesses change.

DSL presumes agreement on semantics, and that's often the most difficult part.

sroerick 11 minutes ago | parent

So why not a DSL for a specific business?

whartung 30 minutes ago | parent

I dunno.

When it comes to back office business programming, there’s just a lot of code tasked with copying a litany of bits of data from one structure to another.

Whether it’s copying a web form into a database, or converting Their JSON to Your JSON, it’s a lot of detail that does not abstract well. It’s all shapes and sizes and formats, and it almost always has to be enumerated in excruciating detail and, typically, twice.

Sure, there’s logic and whatnot involved, but it, too, is specific to some subdomain of the larger system and it, too, does not abstract well. Not in the large context of the overall system.

Accounts Payable and Accounts Receivable, at 10,000 feet look almost identical. They’re almost literally the same thing with the sign flipped. But in practice, they don’t share code well. You end up with two similar systems, but not similar enough where sharing is actually worthwhile.

At best they can leverage a common API to the GL.

Turns out a lot of languages can manifest a decent level of abstraction. But even then, folks push back.

Consider the love/hate relationship with ORMs. Or the annotation driven markup in Java programs and the underlying “magic” that they enable. Like scribing mystic runes onto things.

Those are both very powerful, yet folks experience that and toss their hands in the air and throw out the baby with the bath water and jump into something “magic free” like Go.

Just because you can use something like CL to “make your own magic”, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Doesn’t mean it scales. Doesn’t mean it communicates well to others. AI or no.

It’s not the AIs world yet. We already know that if the AIs want a better language suited to AI efficiency, they’ll come up with their own. I’ve already seen crass examples of “code only an AI could love”. Completely impenetrable, at least to me. May as well have represented it as a color image and collection of RGB values. Opaque to me, but the AI could “read” it.

There is much more to programming and systems than token density, and AI is still getting cheaper by the day, so less reason to even pre-optimize for it anyway.

sroerick 20 minutes ago | parent

There's lots of examples of DSLs being unreasonably useful in industry even prior to LLMs.

While I am extremely taken with Lisps and the lisp way of doing DSLs, I would probably go with an OCaml to make a DSL for a company specific ERP. It seems a better way to go about the problem.

Lisp, on the other hand, I have found to be extremely good at domains which seem the same but which are tremendously different. For example, a workout app is a surprisingly complex domain. Different exercises have different storage models and functions, as do different training sessions and different programs. Rather than try to build a monoprogram, one training app to rule them all, I find lisp wonderful for making "microprograms".

This bears resemblance to Accounts Payable and Accounts Receivable but I don't think Lisp would be a good fit for those. Perhaps a Lean or a Rocq, something with proofs.

> We already know that if the AIs want a better language suited to AI efficiency, they’ll come up with their own.

My agents seem to really like Tree Calculus and have bullied me into working on a language which uses it.

frollogaston 1 hour ago | parent

  Also, in most languages an error will crash your program. So if you’re writing code with an LLM it will have to read your crash logs to make some changes and run your program again. In Common Lisp your program won’t crash, it’ll stop and open a debugger with the whole stack and all the variables. You can just point your LLM at the debugger, and it’ll make its fix and resume the program.
What does this look like in a real example system that you're maintaining? I can't imagine you'd always be able to resume like that if it's something like a webserver.

darkwi11ow 1 hour ago | parent

You can do this in many other interpreted languages like Python interpreter when running with --pdb flag will do the same. I imagine CL does this by default when running code in interpreted mode and omits the behaviour for compiled (production) binaries.

frollogaston 1 hour ago | parent

Yeah but what happens to your server then? The connection it was handling times out I guess, then is the rest of it frozen or what?

rmunn 1 hour ago | parent

I mean, that entirely depends on the server design. Is it running one connection per process? One connection per thread? Presumably you've designed the server in a way that one slow connection doesn't block other connections from being handled fast, which means that this one connection whose handler went into the debugger is just now a really, really slow connection taking minutes (or hours!) to handle, but the other connections are running just fine.

Now, if your entire server is taken down because one connection threw an exception, that's bad design. But pretty much no major language works that way. All of them allow you to set things up so that an exception handling connection A won't affect connection B. And if you've done that in Common Lisp, then connection A halting and waiting for the debugger won't affect connection B either.

Jtsummers 1 hour ago | parent

In CL, this works with compiled code.

rmunn 1 hour ago | parent

Not the author, but unless the server was running in a short-lived ephemeral container (in which case the management system probably killed the container and started a new one), the CL process would still be around in a paused state, waiting for you to connect to it and tell it how to resume.

https://comp-348.github.io/lisp-debugging.html has an example of what it looks like. A toy example, to be sure, but the basics of a real example would still look the same. You're given a choice of several options, very reminiscent of the "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" choice that used to be oh-so-familiar in the days of DOS. Except this one is more useful, because it offers ways to specify how to resume. E.g., the toy project is halting on a `(print X)` call where the value of X is not defined. And the choices are:

0. Continue. (Retry using X).

In the toy example, this would fail, because nothing else has defined X. But in real code, the name might have been undefined because the data needed to define it hadn't arrived yet, from the database or the filesystem. In which case retrying the statement might work the second time.

1. Use-value. (Use specified value).

This one prompts you to enter a value for the undefined variable, and continues, but it does not modify the value of X in the program. The next time the program tries to use X, it will halt again with another "unbound variable" error.

2. Store-value. (Set specified value and use it).

This one, just like Use-value, will prompt you to enter a value to use... but then it will set X to that value and continue running the program. Next time the program tries to read the value of X, it will have one, and the program won't halt.

3. Abort. (Exit debugger, returning to top level).

This is what you would choose if there's no good way to fix the error, and you just have to quit the program and restart. Though note that choosing this option isn't going to exit the program you're debugging, just take you out of the debugger. You'll still need to kill-and-restart it some other way... or come back an hour later when the value is finally available, and then choose options 1 or 2.

Hopefully that gives you a taste for what the CL debugger is like to use in practice.

frollogaston 1 hour ago | parent

This looks like a good debugger, but it's similar to ones I've used in other languages. What's special about this one? I thought the idea was you use the debugger in prod, but now I don't think that's what the article meant.

rmunn 59 minutes ago | parent

Yes, you use the debugger in prod. I've read many articles by Common Lisp users talking about how great that feature is: they can quickly get production back up and running, then go to the code and implement the same fix they just did on live prod.

And it's not editing files on the server, it's actually reaching into the running code and tweaking its values.

That, I think, is the difference here. In many languages, the debugger can pause on the exception and let you inspect the code. But in every other language I've used, once you edit the code to fix the bug, you can't resume from where the debugger paused. You have to recompile the code and resume from the top. In CL, you can resume from exactly the state you were in when the debugger paused, only this time with the correct data in place. (Or even with a code fix having been applied, live, to the code).

chrchr 53 minutes ago | parent

Test driven developmet practitioners in Smalltalk used to (still do?) write the test before writing the implementation, run the test, and, when the "method not implemented" error shows up in the debugger, type the implementation and continue the execution. Common Lisp can do that too.

So, in practice, it might look like you hit any kind of runtime failure, and then the LLM writes some code to fix it, and the user's request completes successfully with no errors.

invalidOrTaken 1 hour ago | parent

Loved the post, have been batting around similar ideas w/clojure. I have two questions:

1. Have you had much success w/moar macros in the age of the LLM? I've been impressed by the models' ability to write good ones, but I can tell my taste/judgement for macros isn't quite there. But they tend to be pretty good at writing gnarly ones, and I would love to work more macros into my workflow. Would love your thoughts. (Have I taken "Simple Made Easy" too far and left macro value on the table?)

2. Do your models ever get confused with image-based dev, and state? It's seemed dumb to me to have models keep running `sed` to change files, but it is nice to have a human-readable, filesystem-backed record of definitions. Would love to hear your experience here.

misterchocolat 52 minutes ago | parent

Thanks!

I've seen a big improvement in LLMs writing macros since Opus 5.5 came out. What really helps I think is that I've written skill files with my own examples and instructions.

Same thing for image-based dev. without an agent.md file with good instructions on how to work with a live image it will do dumb things. this sort of workflow is jsut so far off the training distribution.

I think what changed recently isn't that LLMs got better at CL, they just got way better at taking my skill/agent.md files and reasoning through them.

TacticalCoder 31 minutes ago | parent

I'm convinced we'll be moving at some point to n-modular redundancy systems, using different languages implementation, simultaneously. For the cost of writing code in n languages tends towards zero now (due to the use of LLMs) and the various stacks and implementations shall then cross-check each others.

There shall be one minimal, ultra-hardened, tiny attack surface, "majority gate" picking the answers that most implementation agrees on.

This shall not only detect a great many implementation issues but also it'll help find security issues and platform defects (say the Common Lisp, Haskell, Rust and Python all agree but the Java one fails: in rare case it'll be due to a JVM bug and finding that out shall be simplified).

Code shall be generated from specs in n languages and ran on n stacks. The gate shall return the answer as soon as a quorum is met and, later on, any bogus answer arriving shall be cause for enquiry.

We'll have such systems, it's just a matter of time.

ellg 1 hour ago | parent

cant you do most of this with smalltalk too, or erlang?

I dont really understand what macros get you when llms exist since a llm doesnt really need to create dsls to get work done

misterchocolat 1 hour ago | parent

sure I agree the LLM doesn't need a DSL to get work done. The point is more that the DSL holds the opinions of whoever built the product

UncleOxidant 1 hour ago | parent

I think what they're saying is that in CL you create DSLs that are tailored for the domain and that will result in lower token use. Not sure about that claim, would like to see some data to backup that assertion. Wouldn't you then need to supply the LLM with a "programming manual" for this new DSL? Wouldn't that cost tokens?

ellg 1 hour ago | parent

im saying the inverse, if your thesis is "cl is the best language for AI" I dont think macros really are a killer feature here

I agree with your point

invalidOrTaken 1 hour ago | parent

sure, but input tokens are way cheaper than output.

There is also a phenomenon I've named "brevity collapse." Often, when shrinking a codebase, you find you need less glue. Additionally, because it is smaller, you can hold more of it in your head and see more opportunities for shrinkage. Surprising things happen when the bones of your language get more efficient---it's more like going from elephant to flea than elephant to grizzly bear. The smaller scale means there's less "overhead" code, which means you can go smaller still.

jaggederest 1 hour ago | parent

Smalltalk, in image based systems, absolutely. Erlang not as much, it's more of a "crash the actor and try again" than "rewind, pause, and handle errors in-system"

0xpgm 48 minutes ago | parent

Presumably a DSL would allow you to do more heavy lifting in your specific domain with less tokens.

Let's way you wanted to do a web application using LLMs. Using a web framework would cost less tokens than using the vanilla underlying language (Python, PHP, whatever..), which is again way less tokens than building up from assembly (an LLM should be able to do this given enough time and compute).

dang 20 minutes ago | parent

I hadn't thought of that! Writing a program in fewer tokens* has been Lisp's advantage all along. If, because of token economics, the same advantage accrued at the LLM level, I dare say certain people would be pleased:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21232352 (Oct 2019)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4766191 (Nov 2012)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=694700 (July 2009)

* in the older sense of "token", meaning that one measures a program in AST size rather than lines of code

---

Edit: ok, this is what I get for not reading the article:

> For LLMs, less code means fewer tokens, and tokens are what you pay for so you spend less on development

VikramBhamre 1 hour ago | parent

I mean its cool but what about all of the extra infra I need to write because support for the lang is not as extensive and so more code I need to maintain?

misterchocolat 1 hour ago | parent

I mean if we're heading towards a future where code gen gets super cheap and super good what stops you from porting the libraries you want?

ehe78qhe 1 hour ago | parent

Mostly, having to rediscover all of the underdocumented quirks and features in whatever I'm trying to interface with.

Partly, having to do my own pentesting and red team work instead of using someone else's work that has already been pentested.

frollogaston 58 minutes ago | parent

Yeah, I'll use LLMs to write all application code, but not so sure about libraries. Especially more foundational ones.

giancarlostoro 1 hour ago | parent

> In Common Lisp your program won’t crash, it’ll stop and open a debugger with the whole stack and all the variables. You can just point your LLM at the debugger, and it’ll make its fix and resume the program.

> To my knowledge Common Lisp is the only mainstream language that does all of this.

Sounds like someone who has never used C# and Visual Studio? Even JavaScript is capable of doing this, honestly JavaScript might be the one language with the richest developer tooling of all time (possibly?), sad to say because there's nicer to work with languages out there.

frollogaston 1 hour ago | parent

IF you're running a debug build. I guess Common Lisp can do this in prod?

giancarlostoro 1 hour ago | parent

I mean, so can JavaScript then? Why would I want a debugging window to open up for a customer in production? I remember when Windows used to try to open a debugger when certain programs crashed on me as if I knew what the heck any of that was supposed to mean.

frollogaston 1 hour ago | parent

Was assuming it was a backend. I still don't understand the advantage though. It'd help to have an example.

rmunn 1 hour ago | parent

Just finished typing up an example as you wrote this. Rather than duplicate it, here's the link:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49974251

giancarlostoro 1 hour ago | parent

Thing is with .NET you can debug a release build, and even do remote debugging... So it's all a weird claim to me. Definitely someone who only uses Common Lisp and maybe a language with a less impressive debugging background wrote this article.

To be fair, I love Lisp, I dont do a lot with it, though I'm mostly a fan of Racket which is the most modern one outside of maybe Clojure.

Capricorn2481 55 minutes ago | parent

Yeah, you don't want a lisp debugging window in production. The absence of stack unwinding does enable editing behavior with wrappers. You could have different error handling without changing any code downstream, and I guess an LLM could theoretically change that depending on the bug it's responding to.

But I'm not positive the juice is worth the squeeze, and this article was unconvincing. I mean if you want macros and terse code and a bigger ecosystem, wouldn't Clojure make more sense?

anonair 1 hour ago | parent

I imagine production backend with LLM connected using debug interface and patching the code continuously on any exception encounter.

(not a CL expert here)

rootnod3 1 hour ago | parent

I think what is referred to here is that an exception doesn't unwind the stack. Even if the exception is uncaught, you can fix the line or value and then resume where the stack was.

jaggederest 1 hour ago | parent

I've had some of the same ideas, I would love a full macro system on a dependently typed language. My stab at it earlier in January was not quite the right thing, but I do think this is the way. Weirdly enough concision is even more important in LLM context than in regular human context.

sroerick 1 hour ago | parent

Have you looked into tree calculus at all?

dang 1 hour ago | parent

One thing that has surprised me is how good LLMs are writing Lisp macros. All the annoying boilerplate and backtick-comma arithmetic (',' anyone?) that has ground my gears over the years, they cheerfully churn out correctly. I still review it to make sure they haven't done it in a needlessly complicated way, but I wonder if that is just me being superstitious.

I shouldn't have been surprised, because that part of macro writing is purely mechanical syntax transformation—just a "take these tokens and return those tokens" function that one should expect LLMs to be good at. But I was surprised, because for me that was always the hard part.

So now I can think up new macros to abstract over patterns in my code—the part of macro-writing that I enjoy—and then push a magic "implement this" button to make it work.

What I'm not sure of yet is whether this is an evolutionary dead end—a train stop on the way to "you'll never look at code again, so what does it matter what programming language you used to use". Yes, I still look at my code, and this is a pretty nice train stop, wherever the tracks lead to.

6gvONxR4sf7o 1 hour ago | parent

You might be interested in Lean. It's my favorite lisp, even though it's really not at all a lisp. It's a nice programming language, and it lets you really hack on commands, macros, syntax, and elaboration.

ducktective 4 minutes ago | parent

It's often suggested that Lean is a general programming language but I don't see typical libraries to do basic stuff in it, like an arg parser, web server, GUI, SQL integrations etc. Can lean generate small static binaries the same way Go/Rust/C/C++ can?

gr_norm 15 minutes ago | parent

Lean is the dependently typed language with a SotA metaprogramming system. Lean itself is a language written using this system.

ltbarcly3 1 hour ago | parent

Common Lisp isn't even a good programming language. There's nothing in CL that isn't in a ton of other languages now. When it was being designed it was way ahead, but now it's just way behind.

Maybe you could take CL as a foundation, introduce modern features and uniformity to the language, remove some of the insane complexity, tame the unhygienic macros, and come up with a pretty good language. Since about 7392 different flavors of scheme have tried to do this and mostly failed, I think this is very unlikely.

gorgoiler 1 hour ago | parent

”Would you agree that some programming languages are better than others? If so then one of them must be the best.”

False. A partial ordering doesn’t guarantee a maximum element!

misterchocolat 1 hour ago | parent

Fair enough haha you got me

mumin00 1 hour ago | parent

don't think software companies will user change their software

BurnerBurner 59 minutes ago | parent

Nah with llms the most used lang prolly has the best output

SatvikBeri 57 minutes ago | parent

That really hasn't been my experience, LLMs have done well with Julia since Claude 3.7

dang 57 minutes ago | parent

That was my assumption too (not that long ago, laggard that I am), so I expected LLMs to be less good at Common Lisp than, say, Javascript or Java, and surely to suck at Arc (the Lisp that HN is written in). But it's not so. They excel at Common Lisp—which, ok, has decades of history and documentation which the models have all slurped up. But they're even good at Arc, which is pretty far down the long tail. And when they mess up, I put something in agents.md and that issue mostly just goes away.

Karrot_Kream 50 minutes ago | parent

Not quite, though there does seem to be an advantage for a popular language. Dan Luu explored this at https://danluu.com/pl-tokens/

andrewstuart 58 minutes ago | parent

Now as ever, there is no “best programming language”.

There’s the right tool for the job, there’s compliance with requirements, there’s personal preference.

Don’t let anyone ever tell you you are programming wrong.

fithisux 58 minutes ago | parent

In the benchmarks though here it is slow and consumes too much memory

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

But I find ideas like Carp very attractive.

Still common lisp is designed very good.

nurettin 57 minutes ago | parent

In my experience, LLMs instantly find the reason for the crash and fix. They don't even need to go through the debugging phase anymore. It doesn't matter if you're generating c++ lisp or cobol.

drivebyhooting 56 minutes ago | parent

Won’t you have to write entire stacks of code from scratch for lack of prior art in CL?

literalAardvark 14 minutes ago | parent

Common misconception but no.

The models learned to code, the actual language is just a tiny adapter on top.

alexjurkiewicz 51 minutes ago | parent

I think half the article talks about why CL is good because it can resume from an exception, and half the article talks about why DSLs are good.

I think others have pointed out that most modern scripting languages can halt at exceptions without unwinding the stack. Python & Node both support this with core tooling.

As for DSLs, they constrain the LLM which generally helps with code quality. However why implement your DSL in the unconstrained chaos of CL? You can write DSLs in Rust which gives you static typing, a borrow checker, and clippy.

marviter 36 minutes ago | parent

Common Lisp has these capabilities _without_ dev tooling, via its:

- Conditions[0]

- Evaluation and Compilation[1]

I use both extensively while developing, debugging and analysing. With SLIME (this is a standard and very very slimmed out development aid) you add a debugger hook that allows restart, return from, move down, move up and etc into your available RESTARTs.

[0] https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/09_.h...

[1] https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_.h...

baq 26 minutes ago | parent

What’s missing in most languages is truly native hot reload. Python, for all its dynamicism and being lisp for dictionaries, surprisingly can’t really do it. Maybe node can, but as far as I can tell typescript can’t and I’m not letting the shoggoths touch plain js.

cyberax 15 minutes ago | parent

Uhh.... TS/JS definitely can: https://bjornlu.com/blog/hot-module-replacement-is-easy

Karrot_Kream 51 minutes ago | parent

I keep bouncing the idea around of building a core in C or Rust then writing everything atop it using Janet. I love how readable lisps are (with macros, you can really move up the abstraction ladder quickly) and working on a live image should make iteration a breeze in an LLM.

sroerick 35 minutes ago | parent

I built a OCaml core with a webserver - then made my scripting language on top a custom scheme. I love your idea! I think you would find that a solid interpreted language living in a webserver is an extremely useful think to have. Let me know if you build it!

bitwize 48 minutes ago | parent

Astronaut 1: So... now Lisp is the best programming language?

Astronaut 2: Always has been...

shikck200 45 minutes ago | parent

Lisp allows for some really, really complex and spaghetti code bases. I have seen the ultimate macro-hell from top to bottom. I know syntax does not matter, but i just cant honestly say i read lisp code as clear as something like Go. I guess it boils down to style. I have seen 100 lisp styles, and only one Go style.

djtango 14 minutes ago | parent

Lisp is a sharp tool and I think it struggles to scale with large organisations. You would need incredible tech leadership and a very considered org structure and architecture for it to work.

Culturally, I feel a place like Valve could make it work but you could turn around and ask why does an org need to be in service to and arrange itself around a tool.

rspeele 42 minutes ago | parent

I recently wrote a comment on another thread that I think fits even better here:

In my circles I've noticed it's very easy for us to rationalize why our previous favorite language is also the perfect language for the agent era.

If your favorite language before was Python, why, LLMs are fluent in it! So much training data! So many libraries! Home of machine learning! None of that pesky compile time, agents don't need compile time safety anyway, they write such good test coverage! It's The Perfect Agentic Coding Language.

If it was Rust, by jove, an agent can easily handle the headache of satisfying the borrow checker, and now you get the best of all worlds! Safety! Near-C runtime performance! Abstractions! The only reason people didn't use Rust before was it was Too Hard and there were Too Many Furries and now it's not hard and you don't have to interact with them, so get on board. It's The Perfect Agentic Coding Language.

If it was Golang, oh my goodness, what a choice. Pretty fast compile time and pretty fast runtime. Agents get a tight feedback loop with build->run->test->edit. Not very complicated, code has to be written in a straightforward banging-rocks-together way. Good stable ecosystem! Rob Pike designed the language for people he said were "not capable of understanding a brilliant language but we want to use them to build good software." That's an arrogant, demeaning way to describe your colleagues but if they're LLM agents it's dead on! It's The Perfect Agentic Coding Language.

I could go on and on. I'm not immune either! My own favorite language is F# and when I feel like self-justifying, I play the same game:

It has access to the .NET ecosystem like C#, but I don't have to constantly remind the agents to prefer a style with immutable data and pure functions, they idiomatically do that in F#. Files have to be in order and can only refer to symbols defined "earlier" in order, if you want mutually-referential types or functions they have to be declared as such in a joint statement, so spaghetti is hard to create: each project's codebase naturally ends up in a layered bottom-to-top architecture. The language is terse enough to be token efficient, without being symbol soup. FSX scripts can be generated during agentic code reviews to demonstrate repros for discovered issues. If there's any type of code that still warrants me jumping in and writing some myself, that code would be data type definitions/domain modelling, and F# is a joy to write those in. It's The Perfect Agentic Coding Language.

tommica 35 minutes ago | parent

Spot on! People do really enjoy NOT having to change. We can come up with many excuses why we do not have to do anything different. I'm finding multiple rrasons why I should stick to laravel.

Could be said that it was the path of least resistance, but the funny thing is that most of that resistance is you just being in your own way.

mod50ack 34 minutes ago | parent

The truth is that it really doesn't matter that much.

Use the language that you like (enjoy your favorites!) and that binds well with other tools you're using. I'm currently working on a project that's all C++ (wxWidgets frontend, plus C++ backend). I've used LLM tools with it, no issues. Would be the same with any other language, from what I can tell. I have another project in Go I'll probably try it on at some point soon.

sroerick 34 minutes ago | parent

I noticed you left typescript out

insin 21 minutes ago | parent

A strange omission given that it's also The Perfect Agentic Coding Language.

sroerick 30 minutes ago | parent

But no seriously F# might actually be the perfect agentic coding language. I had the good fortune of learning OCaml a few years ago as the models were getting good. Had a blast.

I think Lisp and an ML are kind of the dynamic (static) duo. I still think MLs are the best for complex projects, but interpreted languages are pretty neat too. Python, Rust, and Golang are all great, also.

I think a tree calculus language might be the actual best - but it's too soon to say

Really, languages are great for LLMs.

prophesi 26 minutes ago | parent

So now we're believing it's great that LLM's can write macros, thus further obfuscating human maintenance of the code-base, because LLM's can understand and implement it than better than humans.

This isn't the future I wanted, and is why I advocate for trade schools these days.

I miss the days I could listen to music and use my adhd/autism to its fullest potential reading documentation and figuring things out myself.

Of course, these are same people you'd want managing these AI agents in the first place, but reviewing code written by others always kind of sucks, especially when it's assumed the language model knows better than you do which isn't often the case!

Was the PRD perfected on the requirements? Only God knows, and I personally want to be there when it's written.

ChadNauseam 24 minutes ago | parent

I must be proving your point because I'm a rust head and the argument you gave for rust just seems like the best one haha. And if I had the choice between two vibe-coded pieces of software, and one was written in rust and the other was written in python, I would far prefer to use the rust one.

sshine 24 minutes ago | parent

Why, you are right on all of these. I used Rust a lot before AI, and I use it a lot after. But I recognise the shortcoming of long compilation: it doesn't just shorten how many times I can have feedback in one day, it is also difficult to fit compilation into constrained environments. Like when an ultra secure Kubernetes cluster doesn't let me compile source code anywhere near it, and I have to compile inside of it; my colleagues insistence on using Go here because "Rust is difficult" (it surely is 100% longer to type when prompting an LLM) really has the main benefit that this code compiles fast and easily within the cluster.

So picking languages for their compilation and especially runtime properties is key.

What I've learned, though, is that languages with reckless error handling produce more errors at runtime. My Rust programs just don't crash because I don't need it to be explicit about reaching a "total" approach.

If you're in a C# environment, I see a case for F#. And if you want fast but more solid than Python, why not Mojo? Although who reads code.

This article convinces me. But I suspect like my lack of domain knowledge of Lisp makes me spend time learning the runtime: how and when can I switch to JIT, what's the async story, how does the harness become part of the Lisp program, etc.

literalAardvark 12 minutes ago | parent

I hated Rust before because it reminded me how inadequate a programmer I am.

It's probably the best language for AI coding though. By far, as far as I can tell.

aussieguy1234 41 minutes ago | parent

That's a lot of power to mess things up that I wouldn't be putting into the hands of an LLM I don't trust.

hota_mazi 40 minutes ago | parent

Yeah... no. I don't think there is a best programming language, but I do think dynamically typed languages are worse for AI to code in compared to statically typed ones.

nickm12 31 minutes ago | parent

This post reads like it was written by a Common Lisp fan who is looking for a reasons to say that Common Lisp is good for AI agents, rather than an AI agent user evaluating what languages are really best.

I've heard fans of both statically typed and dynamically typed languages advocate for their language. The static type fans say that the rigorous compilation process gives the LLM a fast iteration loop with clear messages from the compiler on what invariants aren't being upheld. The dynamically typed languages advocates talk about fewer tokens, the popularity of the language in the training data, and so forth. Guess what, these are the exact same arguments these communities made for human developers.

Personally, I don't know the answer. The industry has swung back and forth on this over the decades. Before AI code-gen static languages were on the upswing for a variety of reasons, including runtime efficiency and much better ergonomics thanks to modern type inference engines. I suspect those reasons are still valid, and also that statically typed languages give LLMs a leg up because it is easier to reason about them locally thanks to declared types and information hiding.

sroerick 29 minutes ago | parent

Yeah, I mean it's tough to describe how good it is to use agents with a lisp REPL, but it's really great using agents with a Lisp REPL.

thenoblesunfish 25 minutes ago | parent

It seems like an assumption here is that any language will be equally performant at runtime, for a given number of tokens burned to produce the code. I have never used any functional language for anything real (except maybe Mathematica). Is that true?

stackghost 14 minutes ago | parent

Common Lisp is not a functional language. You can write functional-paradigm code in CL but it will happily let you write old-school imperative style, OOP, etc.

The de facto open source implementation, SBCL, has a solid compiler and garbage collector. It produces fast code.

Jach 5 minutes ago | parent

Bad performance is much less excusable these days (https://danluu.com/perf-opt/) and usually it's more the result of architecture and data structure choice than presence/absence of things out of the box of some language (though in the case of C++, it seems that everyone who gets obsessed with performance just says to avoid the included stdlib no matter the compiler; so much for that box). Your question seems to me to betray an assumption that Common Lisp is particularly functional (and overall suffers from some sort of functional programming performance trade-offs), when it's not. Common Lisp is unopinionated, multi-paradigm, but at its core is mutation-friendly, compilation friendly (compile is a function available to call at runtime), and object-oriented (CLOS being the first ANSI standardized OOP system, it's more flexible than most OO systems and methods do not belong to classes). There are also many implementations of Common Lisp, including two long-standing commercial ones, so should performance (whether raw throughput, or memory size, or whatever your metrics) not quite be to your liking out of the box with one, you might consider another before giving up and choosing an entirely different language. That said, SBCL is probably the most popular, and has a pretty sophisticated optimizing compiler while allowing you to specify your own assembly ops without actually having to write separate assembly files. See for instance https://www.stylewarning.com/posts/nbody/

onion2k 18 minutes ago | parent

For LLMs, less code means fewer tokens, and tokens are what you pay for so you spend less on development.

I don't think that's strictly true.

What you need is for your LLM to be able to understand enough context to be able to make a change with as few token as possible, so if your code isn't expressive enough or if it has a tendrils calling lots of different functions/methods all over the place, then you'll have to give it much more code (context) than if you've got nice encapsulated modules that don't depend on other parts.

The design of your architecture (probably?) has a greater impact on token use in a large app than the language it's written in. Although, obviously, languages lend themselves to particular architectures so it's correlated.

asxndu 12 minutes ago | parent

APL would win in that regard.

seer 6 minutes ago | parent

I remember the old discussion between clojure programmers and someone who works in a strongly typed language. The argument was “types allow you to be certain that if you change some code, an unrelated but affected part of the codebase will also be flagged and it is not missed” the clojure guy response was “why would you ever design a program where a change in one place affects the other”.

I do think this is an unrelated win of functional languages that hasn’t yet been “discovered” by the vibe coder crowd - FP’s whole premise was that it makes your code depend on much much less things so you can “fit it in your head and reason about”… that’s like the perfect sweet spot for agentic as well, we just haven’t seen tools utilize that in earnest.

bobanrocky 17 minutes ago | parent

This is one of the most inane, fluff articles I’ve seen dumped in this site in a while. Nothing original, just a simplistic regurgitation of known stuff. Reads like lame, lazy LLM slop :(

SolubleSnake 9 minutes ago | parent

An ERP system in...LISP? None of the reasons given as to why that would be a good idea are really very convincing or specific to LISP?

The main things you want for ERP are just to simplify database interactions as far as possible and to give you as many and as customizable options as possible for data visualization and curating information for a non techie user. I dont really get why LISP?

qalmakka 9 minutes ago | parent

I don't really agree with this. Having strong types and guardrails like in Haskell, Rust or OCaml helps _massively_ with LLMs because they get very clear messages back, and can express their logic using semantic types they can easily follow. Conversely, I've noticed that AIs (just like humans) tend to kind of lose the thread with very dynamic code

pulkitbanta 7 minutes ago | parent

Are you saying this based on the fact that no-one will read or understand the code manually? That might be the case but on some areas, having a product understanding and knowing what to build, why to build matters a lot and sometimes the LLMs will write code that is not correct, doesn't make sense and they will continue down that path without explaining it.

I still believe that other languages which are understood by developers are and will be required and LLMs are trained on the same dataset so it can write the code.