26 points signa11 1 hour ago 9 comments

elais-dev 43 minutes ago | parent

i've seen static analyzers catch many ub patterns, but guaranteeing zero ub needs whole‑program analysis that blows up compile time and still produces false positives that drown developers

p1necone 40 minutes ago | parent

The concept of undefined behaviour specific to C/C++ has always seemed batshit insane to me, and I'm yet to read anything about it that has made it seem any less so.

chasil 17 minutes ago | parent

It was written for a PDP-11 with 64k of RAM.

There wasn't room for safe programming practices, and direct manipulation of the hardware was a design requirement.

It assumes that you know what you are doing.

There are also ports to the Zilog Z80, an architecture with similar limitations (UZI, FUZIX).

mpyne 16 minutes ago | parent

It's not specific to C or C++, though it is more prominent there.

Rust's unsafe mode, for instance, has undefined behavior. A whole list of them, in fact.

nananana9 14 minutes ago | parent

It doesn't make sense to define what happens when you e.g. read from NULL because it's hardware specific - if you have virtual memory of some sort, you'd probably get a page mapping error. If you don't (embedded, WASM), you'd read back whatever value is at that address.

Does Rust define what I get when I dereference NULL in unsafe code? I doubt it, since it would require a NULL check before every pointer dereference.

The only insane thing about UB is that compiler writers took what everyone understand meant "the compiler emits what it emits and you get what you get" and turned it into "since it's undefined it means it can never happen so we can delete your null check".

BeaverGoose 28 minutes ago | parent

Make signed overflow defined please.

chasil 23 minutes ago | parent

"Some Honeywell machines, for example, had nine-bit bytes."

OS 2200 has 36-bit words. It is still a supported platform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIVAC_1100/2200_series

This platform was the first SMP UNIX implementation:

"Any configuration supplied by Sperry, including multiprocessor ones, can run the UNIX system."

https://www.nokia.com/bell-labs/about/dennis-m-ritchie/other...

1vuio0pswjnm7 15 minutes ago | parent

1790620504 | Reducing undefined behavior in the C language | https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1095811/b9325731ea9b61e0/ | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49882419 | 15 comments

1790673092 | Reducing undefined behavior in the C language | https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1095811/efcdbcf080cfa4c6/ | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49890290 | 0 comments