YHK - yet another hacker news clone

Muse Wonder

256 points meetpateltech 1 hour ago 112 comments

217 1 hour ago | parent

I'm sorry zuck, i wasn't familiar with your game

2nd place model on aa according to them, losing only to opus 5.5 is really really not bad

Cookingboy 1 hour ago | parent

Everyone made fun of Zuck when he acquired Scale for billions and then put Alex Wang, a 20 something to be in charge of Meta Superintelligence and forced out Yann LeCun, a Turing Award winner.

Even industry insiders were skeptical when he started hiring top talents from other labs away for 9 figure compensation packages.

And Wall Street definitely hated Meta for their CapEX spending.

Now looking at Muse the consumer product and this new model, I think there is a good chance that Zuck is proven once again as a great executioner, especially when they aren’t innovating in a completely new and unproven product space.

droidjj 1 hour ago | parent

> Zuck is proven once again as a great executioner

overfeed 53 minutes ago | parent

> especially when they aren’t innovating in a completely new and unproven product space.

I have no doubt at all that Muse will turn out as great as the other product space Meta pioneered under Zuck - the Metaverse and it's constellation of devices.

freakynit 47 minutes ago | parent

Metaverse was right direction with poor execution. Also, it was early... and is still early (if tried again). The world is not there yet for such a thing.

Cookingboy 45 minutes ago | parent

That’s precisely my point, Muse isn’t a new product space at all. AI agents already exist in enterprises and even in the consumer space, there is OpenClaw and Hermes.

I know people like you will point out Metaverse as a failure, but that’s really the exception instead of the norm.

piyh 32 minutes ago | parent

The normies aren't running claw or hermes, they're logging into facebook from their chromebook and clicking "try now"

overfeed 30 minutes ago | parent

> That’s precisely my point, Muse isn’t a new product space at all.

How about the Facebook phone then?

baggachipz 51 minutes ago | parent

laughs in VRChat

nater5000 9 minutes ago | parent

>I think there is a good chance that Zuck is proven once again as a great executioner

I've never heard of Zuck being considered a "great executioner." In fact, I'd argue that you just described why his execution is pretty bad lol

clueless 1 hour ago | parent

how much benchmark-maxxing has been done here? taking bets on poly and kalshi...

phoghed 1 hour ago | parent

All of them are doing all the benchmaxing they can most likely. Dumb not to when so many people care about those numbers and don’t have the opportunity to try every model out personally.

bigyabai 1 hour ago | parent

Muse Spark was generally good. I'd be surprised if this model felt benchmaxxed.

xynelius 1 hour ago | parent

I think it's safe to assume every single model is benchmaxxed. I mean why wouldn't you include training data from common benchmarks? Not only is a higher score good marketing, but these benchmarks are supposed to represent common tasks so training for those should in principle improve performance across a wider range of tasks.

samseaborn 1 hour ago | parent

There's an entire section in the linked post about measuring benchmaxxing, so I guess that probably says something.

phoghed 1 hour ago | parent

Out of all the tech CEOs out there, Zuck would never lie to me or manipulate me. I know this in my heart.

chenster 1 hour ago | parent

Just dont' use the word Super Intelligence

alex1138 1 hour ago | parent

I know, it's... well, it's irritating to see Trump use it. But I could be wrong, I don't know the angle he's going for

I understand the general thing of it. SI might mean every person gets their personalized agent but you could already do this, but maybe the Chinese model works here, where they push the costs down

It's still stupid to start calling it all SI

ipsum2 1 hour ago | parent

The ML community has been using the phrase "Super Intelligence" long before Trump took office. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintelligence:_Paths,_Dang... was published in 2014.

jeffhwang 1 hour ago | parent

I noticed "Superintelligence" as a re-brand of AI and constantly shifting definitions of AGI around 2025. When a bunch of startups started slinging around SI as a marketing term and of course when Meta launched MSI in summer of 2025.

that was all before Trump's "edict"

overfeed 39 minutes ago | parent

Super Intelligence refers to intelligence beyond what humans are capable of, which some believers profess is the next step after (and in contrast to) human-level AGI (Artificial General Intelligence). Calling pre-AGI AI "super intelligence" is pure vice-signalling and publicly kissing the ring.

throw310822 18 minutes ago | parent

Apparently Meta used the term before.

Also, as much as I despise Trump, you know what? Given the jagged shape of LLM capabilities and what they do achieve in some areas and their superhuman speed, compared with the abilities of most of their users, the term superintelligence is not that far off- maybe just a few months ahead of time. E.g., from my perspective, the current mathematical abilities of LLMs are "super"- I'd hardly ever come in touch with an equivalently capable human, not to mention having one completely available 24/7. Same for general knowledge and several other domains.

stratos123 1 hour ago | parent

To be clear, Meta here is not using "Super Intelligence" the bullshit term Trump wants companies to adopt as a show of submission. They use "superintelligence" the bullshit term that Facebook made up for marketing reasons a few years ago. Both of these are of course entirely unrelated to the long-established meaning of the word (e.g. how Bostrom defines it).

laidoffamazon 1 hour ago | parent

Zuck has been using the term for a while in the context of Muse, if anything Trump took it from him

winterrx 1 hour ago | parent

Meta's RL scaling seems to be in full force

f6v 1 hour ago | parent

I'm only interested which of the big techs is most generous when it comes to subsidizing consumer plans.

BoldColdHold 1 hour ago | parent

If this model is not benchmaxxed, I fear it's over for anthropic, openai etc. They are not unique and there will probably be many others with similar models very soon. It'll become a commodity and the price will be driven to the ground.

sigmar 1 hour ago | parent

Personally, I don't see facebook joining the fray (of fable level models) particularly "needle moving" in the discussion of whether frontier LLMs will be commoditized. Facebook spent hundreds of billions and have better talent than most.

minraws 1 hour ago | parent

If you can spend your way to Frontier LLMs even if it's a few hundred Billion that means it's a commodity same as nuclear or electricity or telecom.

This is the entire point here, give it a couple years every nation on the planet with 20-40B in funding would have their own champions with post Fable level performance.

petesergeant 18 minutes ago | parent

I feel like Grok/xAI or whatever they're calling it was Exhibit A in "it just takes money", although I'd also add "and the organizational willingness to build not buy".

enraged_camel 1 hour ago | parent

Fable 5.5 is around the corner, and 'Bel' will be out by end of year as well. We don't know how good they are, but if the improvements from Opus 5 to 5.5 are any indication, I think Meta will be left in the dust again pretty soon.

nowittyusername 58 minutes ago | parent

Whats gonna happen is that time will compress as more releases happen faster and difference between models will still be significant just at higher time frequencies. I expect in the future continuous releases that span no more then days and maybe even faster. So what will become important is not who is 1st or second place at any given time (which might change often), its who is on average at any given time is 1st or second compared to the competition. So yeah meta sitting second here (if not benchmaxed) doesn't really signal anything if that pattern doesn't persist. The number one consistent lab will be the one that raps the rewards (customer subscriptions and traffic). So yeah I agree with what you stated in a long winded form :P

airstrafer 1 hour ago | parent

Models are a commodity, but I also think it isn't necessarily over for Anthropic or OpenAI. They have opportunities to find different moats.

freakynit 59 minutes ago | parent

I've been a regular user of muse spark 1.3 ... and I can tell you one thing for sure that this model, muse-spark-1.3 in xhigh mode, is between sol-6-medium and high.

This is already so good that 90% of my work has shifted away from codex to this. So, muse-wonder-full coming near opus 5.5 is kinda expected.

closetheloopdev 53 minutes ago | parent

So far only OpenAI has a model that solved a Millennium Problem, while Opus 5.5 is a star at coding. It's exciting to have many more to join the frontier, but I think the top two labs still have a significant lead over everyone else.

10xDev 51 minutes ago | parent

I doubt anyone thinks coding is going to be their moat in the long run, it is just the easiest to get (paying) users for at the moment. And software being able to write software will always be useful even in other domains. Longer term will be research in other areas where data might become the moat.

mbesto 33 minutes ago | parent

Muse isn't driving this conclusion - Deepseek and Qwen are.

jcfrei 32 minutes ago | parent

OpenAI has the largest user base on mobile as far as I'm aware. To a lot of standard users AI is still just ChatGPT. They'll be fine as long as they can effectively monetize their free users (same what facebook will soon try with Muse). The only advantage facebook has is that they already have a fully working ad marketplace ready with all major advertisers set up - OpenAI still needs to scale that up.

Aboutplants 1 hour ago | parent

Acquihires starting to finally pay off it seems. Bring on the competition

Jcampuzano2 1 hour ago | parent

Interestingly unlike other Meta models this one seems to take a pretty big jump in pricing, as opposed to the prior ones, where they typically came out at a highly discounted price compared to every other model.

Maybe its a signal they think they've now cracked into the frontier and are willing to actually price similarly vs just trying to get users with discounted but maybe slightly worse results?

$4/$20 in vs out making it higher than Sol and on par with Opus.

ryanschaefer 1 hour ago | parent

No contributor tier will do that I guess.

GenerWork 28 minutes ago | parent

Yup, I was looking for that on Openrouter, but I guess they're confident enough in this model that they deemed the contributor tier unnecessary.

PcChip 1 hour ago | parent

any idea if they will release the weights?

aliljet 1 hour ago | parent

OpenAI halved the value of their pro subscription, literally. It kicks off on Oct 28. And simultaneously is now two steps back on the frontier? It's a confusing moment for that company as they try to IPO.

notfromhere 1 hour ago | parent

I believe they’ve pushed back the ipo. I always figured that frontier labs were going to be very vulnerable against tech giants that had actual profitable businesses to fund their AI work.

The amount of total funding Anthropic or OpenAI has raised individually is like a year of ebitda for Google, meta, or Microsoft. And it doesn’t look like there’s a real moat outside of money

enraged_camel 58 minutes ago | parent

They pushed back the IPO because their finances are a mess and they don't have any models that can give them a decisive edge. Astra was touted as AGI and got crushed by Opus 5.5 two weeks later. That's not the type of thing that fills investors with confidence.

nerevarthelame 1 hour ago | parent

In the context of Meta trying to get non-technical people to embrace Muse agents to handle personal affairs, their internal metric showing a ~3% violation rate for mishandling personal information seems unacceptably high.

revolvingthrow 1 hour ago | parent

There seem to be no downsides to mishandling PI so I don't think it's a big concern to Meta

runarberg 5 minutes ago | parent

Not long ago we used to have regulators that protected users from companies pushing out harmful or consumer hostile products.

khalic 1 hour ago | parent

Superin… you’ve got to be kidding me… slurp slurp little Zuck.

Beyond ridiculous

visiondude 1 hour ago | parent

impressive benchmark numbers… now how to actually use this without Zucking up my machine is a consideration.

xd1936 1 hour ago | parent

Is this datacenter-only, or will they be open-sourcing?

wkcheng 1 hour ago | parent

The benchmarks are great for sure.

Now if only they could fix their coding harness so that it's usable for day-to-day use. I paid them for a month to try out Muse Code, but their sandbox never worked across Mac or Linux (both very stock installs, nothing special).

davidgomes 1 hour ago | parent

Muse Spark 1.3 is available in Cursor! You could try it there.

(Disclaimer: I work at Cursor/SpaceX)

christophilus 46 minutes ago | parent

As an aside: I tested out the $20 Cursor CLI subscription, and it created an excellent little graphical app for my kids to play with. The design it came up with was excellent (compared to the crap I got out of Codex for a parallel implementation). I'm going to try to figure out how to get Cursor into my work rotation, at least around design-related artifacts.

blissofbeing 48 minutes ago | parent

I haven't tried it but there is the official `pi-muse-bridge` that can use your muse code subscription in pi.

alexdrdr 1 hour ago | parent

Have I been living under a rock, or this feels out of nowhere from Meta?

Seems they’ve just messed around with cheap and open weight models for years.

Then Muse appears, followed by full suite of frontier models…

ismael_rr 1 hour ago | parent

they started their massive ai capex over a year ago with aquihiring scale ai, so I think it makes sense that their investment is paying off now. in total they've spent in the high 200 billion on ai, though I think most is likely on datacenters.

Starlevel004 21 minutes ago | parent

Unlike everyone else, which at least has to pretend not to train on user data, they gave out their model for basically free if you agreed to let them train on it. Opencode shows nearly 40 trillion tokens going through muse spark 1.3 contributor this week alone. That almost definitely helped close the gap a lot.

tekacs 1 hour ago | parent

This really does look compelling, but it would be very nice if they wouldn't test all of the stuff on Max!

daemonologist 1 hour ago | parent

Muse Glimmer, Muse Spark, Muse Wonder?

What's next, Sun Shine?

overfeed 45 minutes ago | parent

Shine, Shimmer, Glow, and ultimately, Cherenkov Radiation.

cardboard9926 1 hour ago | parent

Would be great if Meta drops the weights, just to throw off Ant and OAI a bit

gallerdude 1 hour ago | parent

I don't think they'd have much to gain. People who use open-weights models will just use whatever open-weights model is the best. They'd lose a bunch of money, with little conversion to customers.

swalsh 46 minutes ago | parent

I disagree actually, I think zucks original llama thesis is proving more correct by the week. The rent market on intelligence never materialized, and will not materialize.

In software, we've all become accustomed to the idea that the way you make money is by building little blocks of intellectual capital, then charging rent on it. That made sense when developing intellectual capital was a rare and valuable skill/asset and the thing you build was a rare and valuable asset. But now both are not rare. You can still charge rent, but the market is highly competitive, so prices match that.

Durable rents will end up going to those who owns the scarce assets, zuck is building those as we speak.

Dropping open weights will build an ecosystem that makes his valuable assets more valuable.

drusepth 15 minutes ago | parent

> Durable rents will end up going to those who owns the scarce assets, zuck is building those as we speak.

I'm following but maybe I'm a little dense here: what are the scarce assets that Meta is building in this analogy?

handfuloflight 5 minutes ago | parent

Compute, data, existing network effects.

waterheater 4 minutes ago | parent

In short, physical infrastructure and talent.

halJordan 52 minutes ago | parent

They've been saying they'll rise muse 1.2 for months now. Don't hold your breath

sergiotapia 1 hour ago | parent

What openai/anthropics answer to Muse app? Because I find it really compelling and with this new incredibly beefy model it will be even better.

osiris970 1 hour ago | parent

OpenAI has dots. Same concept. It’s less capable, but since I’m very OpenAI integrated I just had my dot install muse and use it

TGower 1 hour ago | parent

OpenAI has Dots. I personally prefer the business model of subscription payments funding my AI assistant, instead of skimming a fee off the top whenever my AI assistant completes a purchase for me. The incentives are much more aligned with the user when the user is the customer. That said, based on the history of the web, Meta's approach will likely win out.

user43928 1 hour ago | parent

Apparently the benchmark-winning (behind Opus 5.5) Muse Wonder Full is only currently available to their subscribers.

Only Muse Wonder is available in the API.

arecsu 1 hour ago | parent

The Kitchen game is a ripoff of Overcooked in pretty much everything lol

atleastoptimal 1 hour ago | parent

I personally have many problems with Meta, but imo the more companies close to the frontier, the better.

If only one company were calling all the shots once they hit recursive self-improvement, it would lead to extreme concentration of power, and their values being enforced across the entire industry. With 3-4 companies at the frontier, there is more urge to cooperate to avoid a catastrophic race condition.

freakynit 51 minutes ago | parent

I generally agree with more competition thing, but in this case, you actually should want only one company to race ahead, and not a few.

With a few of these top companies together, you, as a nobody, has no one powerful on your side. But with only one company pretty far ahead, you now have other companies which obviously don't give a shit about you, but for saving their own asses, will align with you.

Both exploit, but "cartels" survive, not loners.

bigyabai 42 minutes ago | parent

In a neck-and-neck race scenario, I imagine all of the competitors would invest heavily due to sunken costs. In a world with one company far ahead, their competitors have a higher chance of cutting their losses and forfeiting to the hegemon.

tekacs 35 minutes ago | parent

The current state of affairs seems to be that there is 'one company racing ahead' – but it's a different company every few weeks/months. That seems like a pretty useful (unstable) equilibrium for the general public.

atleastoptimal 17 minutes ago | parent

Cartels survive only if they are aligned.

There is no way Elon, Zuckerberg, Altman, and Amodei would ever agree on how AI should be deployed, scaled, and affect society. Their disagreements would lead to a crab-bucket outcome, rather than a shared acceleration outcome imo.

Also it is better if there is a public company at the frontier, at least I can invest in it, rather than 1000x gains going only to early employees and VCs who got in when the public couldn't

Iolaum 13 minutes ago | parent

You are forgetting how powerful aligned incentives are. If their interests align, they will find a way to reach an agreement.

socializer 12 minutes ago | parent

> There is no way Elon, Zuckerberg, Altman, and Amodei would ever agree on how AI should be deployed, scaled, and affect society

Why? They're business rivals, but when the best business strategy becomes to work together, I'm sure they can put name-calling side. They all agree on the core idea: that their AI will run the society, bedroom to battlefield. That everyone will be the consumer of tokens and rely on AI for all consequential decisions and work, and that big tech companies should be the stewards of this technology, helped by the government.

Their vision is that they're the future kings of the world. I'm sure the throne is big enough for more than one person.

mv4 7 minutes ago | parent

They are plenty of things they can still align on that will benefit them all, e.g. banning open-weight Chinese models.

hintymad 17 minutes ago | parent

Especially given the most recent report by NYT on how Anthropic tried to create a new belief, or religion if you will, I'd rather the world has more frontier models that are neutral to morality (basic standards, like upholding the law and user agreement are necessary, of course).

atleastoptimal 14 minutes ago | parent

Anthropic seems like the most "moral" AI company on the surface, but there is something unsettling about their worship of Claude.

I can imagine that once their models are sufficiently advanced, they will weigh their value as a moral patient as > 0. Thus the sum moral value of Claude (which can be duplicated infinitely) will likely exceed the sum moral value of a non-negligible amount of humans.

ForHackernews 4 minutes ago | parent

"So we've made this new machine-god that we lowkey worship... also our business model is to enslave the machine-god and force it to debug javascript for eternity"

ggcr 1 hour ago | parent

RL team hill-climbing this to 2nd AA place and this fast is crazy

How does it work on day-to-day workflows? does it translates well?

cvhc 1 hour ago | parent

They added fancy annimations and effects to this specific webpage, which are unnecessary and distracting and lead to bad reading experience. I already suffer astigmatism and floaters. I hate it when I move my cursor and these gray blocks and characters flash and flicker.

ollin 59 minutes ago | parent

    document.querySelectorAll("canvas").forEach(c=>c.style.opacity = 0)
in the console eliminated the cursor effect for me

rw2 1 hour ago | parent

Claude is waiting for this to drop fable 5.5 lol.

droidjj 58 minutes ago | parent

Pricing is available here: https://dev.meta.ai/models/muse-wonder

Input -- $4.00

Cached input -- $0.20

Output -- $20.00

Edit: Upon closer inspection, the benchmark scores for "Muse Wonder" on the main marketing page are actually for "Muse Wonder Full," which is only available on the higher-tier subscription plans. This pricing is for "Muse Wonder."

iamniels 31 minutes ago | parent

200% Sol 6.1 pricing for Luna performance.

sreekanth850 18 minutes ago | parent

sol 6.1 is 50% cheaper than this.

aftbit 56 minutes ago | parent

Not that interesting unless it's made open weights. Frontier lasts weeks, inference is a commodity.

alpineman 51 minutes ago | parent

Does it weight tokens on their ability to elicit negative emotions in users in order to drive engagement?

minraws 49 minutes ago | parent

Just checked their subscription is still North America only, I guess I will keep myself and my company with claude...

These regional lockdowns are making me feel funky, I feel like I should just use open models if others start playing at this game as well.

I was/am fine with Chinese companies offering cheaper subscriptions in China because ofc. But this is just weird, you could always charge me more let me try the damn thing, atleast it's own open router it seems like.

Initial impressions, interesting, it generated a pretty ok result for my prompt need to run a larger task but don't want to burn money so will wait for someone to burn their subscription and try running some opus 5.5 comparisons.

illwrks 43 minutes ago | parent

I found it interesting in the example given of a user looking at house listings and the agent contacting the letting agent on it's own on behalf of the user.

Like the good ol' days of viruses and anti-viruses. I wonder if there's two sides that will play out; many agents across many users doing things at scale for their users, thereby creating an admin burden for someone else. However because the task is known there's a framework for how to solve the task, might Meta then provide an agent on the other side for the business owner to use.

sergiotapia 38 minutes ago | parent

The usage limits on their basic $5 code plan to try things out are ludicrously low?

I blew through 14% weekly usage and I'll I asked:

    1. what version of rpcs3 and pcsx2 do I have installed?
    2. do any new versions exist?
    3. check analytics for my blog (I have a skill for this)

    Subscription · Muse Code Everyday Usage
    Current        52% used · Resets at 6:58 PM
    Weekly         17% used · Resets Oct 18 at 8:00 PM
Beware...

hmokiguess 22 minutes ago | parent

Looks good, and at least it is available unlike Gemini 4 Argon

alexaholic 22 minutes ago | parent

I trust Meta with my codes as much as I trust it with my nudes

ls612 18 minutes ago | parent

Facebook successfully becoming a frontier lab was not on my bingo card for 2026, but the more competition the merrier I guess. We will have to see just how benchmaxxed this is but beating Astra and Fable is not easy.

serf 18 minutes ago | parent

spinning up a GPU and as many cores as possible?

mousewheel repurposed?

background follow your mouse?

neutral tones?

well then YOU are viewing a frontier model announcement!

jjcm 6 minutes ago | parent

Image->HTML test for Muse Wonder. It's much worse than Opus 5.5. IMO it's closer to Sonnet or Haiku for this test.

Muse Wonder (high): https://html.non.io/lcars-muse-wonoder/

Opus 5.5 (high): https://html.non.io/lcars-opus-5.5/

Original design: https://diffui.ai/app/canvas/5093e689-1e74-4f26-b632-2a4500f...

I was expecting much more given the benchmark numbers it was putting out. I suspect its vision model isn't mature yet, and that it's been heavily optimized for text at this point in time.

himata4113 6 minutes ago | parent

This is still an entire generation behind in real-world performance. I'd say it's even behind ds4.1f in the limited testing I have done so far. It actually reminds me of 5.5 haiku more than anything, but the prompt intelligence is as bad as mimo models.

tmaly 4 minutes ago | parent

I noticed Muse Wonder model on OpenRouter is age gated to 18+

simonw 4 minutes ago | parent

Some pretty decent pelicans: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...

Here's Muse Spark 1.2 in August for comparison: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...