45 points bcaulfield 2 hours ago 31 comments

readthenotes1 1 hour ago | parent

Among my peers, some would want to interpret "it was tired" to mean that the road had too many vehicles on it.

teekert 28 minutes ago | parent

Too many tires (or perhaps on second thought that was you joke, sorry just woke up).

vkazanov 5 minutes ago | parent

You are just too tired this morning (hit with tires)

hsavit1 1 hour ago | parent

barely have enough attention to read through the subtitle

calf 1 hour ago | parent

I thought it was scaling

greenavocado 1 hour ago | parent

That would be pattern recognition

jvanderbot 1 hour ago | parent

Rule #1 of reading CS papers - don't trust the anthropomorphized terms. Rule #2 - definitely don't extrapolate those terms to the real mind.

Of course, attention is almost certainly a heuristic readers use, but to even bring it up as key to intelligence begs so many questions about LLMs and the mind...

kelseyfrog 1 hour ago | parent

Why not? Who has earned a monopoly on anti-anthropomorphism?

jvanderbot 1 hour ago | parent

It's misleading. When it's right, it's right by coincidence, since the vast majority of algorithmic terms that seem like they should provide insight into the human mind, like "attention" could just as easily be called "finger" or "tape head".

And suddenly we're looking at people who read ticker tape or by following with their finger for insights into neuroscience?

kelseyfrog 39 minutes ago | parent

Humans will alway try to conflate mysteries because of our drive toward parsimony.

We survived comparisons to hydraulics, clockwork, steam, circuits, information processing, and networks. I'm positive we'll survive comparisons to attention and models too.

If it's an argument from pedantism, let us remind ourselves to be language descriptivist than language prescriptivists. Prescriptivists never win.

KingMob 7 minutes ago | parent

Yes, but attention is not like the other analogies you highlighted. The word already HAS a meaning in biology.

So instead of being a useful, if imperfect, analogy from an outside domain, trying to use ML attention to understand biological attention just results in confusion (like this article).

Neuroscientists aren't going to tell ML researchers they can't use "attention", but nor are they going to pay attention to them (pun intended). Neural networks are almost always too divergent from biology to shed light on real neurons.

parodysbird 1 hour ago | parent

It's bad metaphysics. If you really want to do bad metaphysics, then you can, but it's also hardly an attack on you if others promote norms of not doing bad metaphysics.

j16sdiz 37 minutes ago | parent

Sure. but how far can we apply this logic?

--

A computer can't read a file, it is just sending electric signal, sensing the voltage, probing the magnetic field, etc.

"read" a file is anthropomorphized terms for what the machine do when processing a file.

--

Maybe we should just stop worrying and embrace the new meaning of those words?

KingMob 20 minutes ago | parent

The problem lies more in #2 than #1. It's fine to repurpose words in new domains, but there's zero guarantee that translates back into anything useful about the original domain.

As a former perceptual neuroscientist, I can assure you that ML "attention" has very little to do with biological attention.

JacobAsmuth 11 minutes ago | parent

Wow, a guarantee from a neuroscientist! Those are rare!

0xWTF 1 hour ago | parent

This is the core insight, some in the original grad student author's own words:

https://www.quantamagazine.org/is-attention-the-essence-of-i...

"Sentences with pronouns such as “it” in them illustrate the challenge that attention overcomes. Consider: “The animal didn’t cross the street because it was too tired.” And: “The animal didn’t cross the street because it was too wide.” To translate these sentences correctly into French, an AI model must determine that, in the first one, “it” refers to the animal, which is a masculine word in French, so the translation should use that form of the pronoun, il. But in the second sentence, “it” refers to the street, a feminine word that requires a different pronoun, elle. How can the machine figure this out?"

"Bahdanau remembered doing translation exercises when he was learning English in school. To write each next word of his translated sentence, he’d have to glance all around the source text to figure out what should come next. “Literally you have your source sentence on the left and your writing on the right, and you’ll be, like, turning your head, left-right, left-right,” he said. “That process is what I expressed as a neural mechanism.”

That simplicity seems to me the real tell that this is the real insight. The author does a good job of walking the ready past a long list of distractors and conjuring a sense of a path to an insight, and then, there's the insight - a simple encoding of a simple task: "What is the next word? How do I figure that out? Left-right. Left-right"

wyager 1 hour ago | parent

An IMO under-appreciated aspect of attention is that it's an ingredient for building a Turing-complete evaluator, since (for example) it lets you implement mutable RAM by treating the attended data as a write log: https://yager.io/neural/turing/turing.html

tomrod 1 hour ago | parent

This IS interesting and nifty!

hn_submit 47 minutes ago | parent

The answer is clearly "no." The fact that neural networks can decipher patterns in our language without knowing what the sentence is about or even what the individual words mean makes it obvious that the entire A.I. "boom" is based on quicksand. These A.I. companies may sprinkle in some stuff that makes it look intelligent, but the current transformer/attention system will only get us so far.

mhl47 46 minutes ago | parent

And what does that "without knowing what the sentence is even" even mean? Care to elaborate/define it?

antics 44 minutes ago | parent

As an NLP person it's very hard for me to endorse this explanation, because the Vaswani et al transformer (as it is described here) simply does not work until you add the most important ingredient of all: the positional encoding.

Most of the semantics of a sentence are indicated by the precise order the tokens appear. This is easiest to see in a language like English, since it is visible in two very prominent ways.

First, the morphology is fairly derivational, meaning you can keep adding suffixes to things and English speakers will generally get what you mean. For example, add some more suffixes to that word: derivational-ish-ly. You've probably never heard this specific variant, but you still probably have some idea of what it means anyway. The transformer can only capture these semantics if it has some representation of the fact that the suffixes inflect the meaning of the word's root (presumably something like `deriv`). English encodes this entirely by the position of the suffixes relative to the root. Without the positional information, there is no way to recover it, and sentences would lose much of their meaning, since English depends heavily on this construction.

Second, English has relatively few cases, and thus relies very heavily on the order of words to indicate what is the subject and what is the object. English specifically is Subject-Verb-Object, and the instinct of native English speakers to use SVO ordering is so strong, you will find them inserting nouns and pronouns into sentences that do not actually have subjects at all. "It's raining outside" is the most famous example. This sentence has no subject at all, and yet native English speakers feel a strong need to place "it's" at the beginning.

If the transformer did not have positional encodings it would be completely hopeless to recover what is the subject and what is the object from English sentences. There simply is no other way to reliably tell, other than inspecting the word positions.

It's worth noting we also do have the counterfactual. Generative language models that explicitly exclude positional information, like Latent Dirichlet Allocation, are only able to (essentially) cluster word co-occurrences. That is not as useless as it sounds—if I say "fire house burning ambulence" you kind of get the point even without a subject or an object—but it certainly does not generate the lucid, provoking sentences that modern LLMs do.

cyanydeez 36 minutes ago | parent

The Chinese will eventually test this theory with their 80000 character set.

in-silico 31 minutes ago | parent

I like the enthusiasm but no they actually work fine without positional encodings: https://arxiv.org/abs/2512.12167

antics 24 minutes ago | parent

To clarify, I'm talking about the original formulation of the problem, where positional encodings are crucial, because the article is talking about the original formulation of the problem.

But these days, there are many more options. They all maintain this positional information in one way or another. The one you cite (as I understand it) drops the positional encodings after pretraining, and keeps (e.g.) the causal mask.

inkysigma 30 minutes ago | parent

Well, the masking could be causal and I think that's been investigated by several groups.

antics 22 minutes ago | parent

Yes, as I mentioned to another commenter, I'm talking about the original formulation because that's what the article talks about. We have more options now, although (as you seem to be suggesting) they do all necessarily model position. They have to—there is no other way to do things like recover the subject in an English sentence without positional information.

KingMob 24 minutes ago | parent

As a former neuroscientist of visual perception, I always feel compelled to point out that "attention" in the ML sense has very little to do with biological attention.

"Spreading activation" would be a better analogy.

----

It's mostly harmless, though it occasionally results in head-scratchers from the biological POV. I once saw a ML paper talking about "retinal attention", which is funny, because the retina is one of the few places in the central nervous system where afawk, attention is impossible.

There's simply no efferent (brain->retina) non-motor nerves capable of biasing photoreceptor output; the retina is largely ballistic. (Eyeball motion is not attention.)

BLKNSLVR 21 minutes ago | parent

TLDR

scarmig 7 minutes ago | parent

The term "attention" confuses more than it reveals, trading well-known terminology for a weak analogy to how the human brain works. Kernel smoothing is all you need.

ptidhomme 4 minutes ago | parent

>> To be sure, the success of LLMs shows how much information about the world is encoded in the statistical patterns of language alone

How can we still have it so backwards. Language is just a medium to convey information on an underlying reality. LLM do not model the medium, they model the underlying reality (so far as the medium allows it).

charcircuit 4 minutes ago | parent

Attention is not the key, if anything is the key it to intelligence it is scale. As long as all of the information is there for the model, with sufficient scale you will see intelligence emerge. This premise is core to the belief that the main blocker behind LLMs being "discovered" was not architecture, but in fact compute. Once sufficient compute is available eventually someone will be able to create an LLM that is intelligent.