51 points johnnyApplePRNG 1 hour ago 99 comments

JuniperMesos 52 minutes ago | parent

> Marvin, 78, said she's not sure how many times she's blocked the path of these robots, which hit the streets of Philadelphia in March. The University of Pennsylvania professor emeritus has made a practice of it to protest "corporations that displace human delivery workers in order to enrich their own bottom line." Her past encounters have circulated online. The Wednesday incident was the first time, however, that the police got involved.

> Officers approached Marvin after she'd been there "quite a long time," she said. They asked her to step aside and let the robot complete its delivery. When she repeatedly refused, they arrested her for disorderly conduct.

Good. I want delivery robots to be able to operate in public, I don't want people like Marvin to be blocking them because they disapprove of the concept of delivery robots or think it's bad that they're displacing human jobs, and I think that a disorderly conduct arrest is an eminently reasonable response from the criminal justice system.

> Marvin, who plans to contest the charge on the grounds of her First Amendment right to protest, has been undeterred by the arrest. She plans to continue blocking Uber Eats robots and chatting with curious passersby who ask what she's doing.

The first amendment doesn't and shouldn't protect interfering with reasonable delivery robot use of the public streets; indeed the law should protect the rights of operators of delivery robots to have their robots deliver items to customers without interference. The criminal justice system should absolutely incarcerate her if she publicly intends to continue interfering with delivery robots.

bradgranath 47 minutes ago | parent

1A says she is free to protest human workers by getting in their way in public. Do you think picket lines are illegal? Why is this different because they're robots?

gravypod 32 minutes ago | parent

> 1A says she is free to protest human workers by getting in their way in public.

I am not a lawyer but I don't know if the first amendment allows you to block access from others to things. Some things similar to this are covered in this ACLU blog post: https://www.aclu-il.org/news/when-else-can-government-regula....

mlyle 30 minutes ago | parent

> Do you think picket lines are illegal?

Picket lines that actually block other people from crossing instead of trying to persuade them not to? Yes. Use of threats, physically blocking, or just general impediment? Yes.

Not only does it violate state law (e.g. obstruction of free movement, interference with a business open to the public, false imprisonment, and assault are all offenses here in California depending on the facts), but it also violates NLRA rules.

(e.g. a recent labor case found repeated 1 to 4 minute "inadvertent" blockages unlawful -- https://www.laborrelationslawinsider.com/2018/02/the-nlrb-si...)

The Moscone Act that recognizes picketing federally also makes clear that this is not OK.

> It is not the intent of this section to permit conduct that is unlawful including breach of the peace, disorderly conduct, the unlawful blocking of access or egress to premises where a labor dispute exists, or other similar unlawful activity.

bryanlarsen 28 minutes ago | parent

Picket lines that completely obstruct are illegal generally.

boesboes 45 minutes ago | parent

You are a piece of shit

bradgranath 40 minutes ago | parent

Thanks

crote 42 minutes ago | parent

And what about the person's right to continue without being obstructed?

It's a standoff. She's literally just standing there. She doesn't move out of her way to let the robot pass - but neither does the robot move to let her pass!

So why should she be the only one arrested and incarcerated? Why not arrest the robot for the same crime?

Sidewalks are for humans to walk on, not dedicated travel corridors for commercial robots. If those robots can't play nice and yield to pedestrians, then they don't belong on the sidewalk.

JuniperMesos 36 minutes ago | parent

Because the robot is operating normally and not particularly trying to obstruct her or any other person; whereas she is deliberately interfering with the robot because she has a political grievance against delivery robots and thinks it is good to interfere with their normal operation. The law should absolutely make a distinction between those two things when regulating what sorts of physical movement on the public street constitute a crime.

crote 23 minutes ago | parent

You are making a lot of assumptions about both her and the robot's intentions.

Who's to say the robot hasn't been given bad-faith programming to never yield to assert dominance? What if the human had been blind or in a wheelchair, unable to move out of the way?

JuniperMesos 8 minutes ago | parent

Yes; I'm assuming that the paragraph in the linked article:

> Marvin, 78, said she's not sure how many times she's blocked the path of these robots, which hit the streets of Philadelphia in March. The University of Pennsylvania professor emeritus has made a practice of it to protest "corporations that displace human delivery workers in order to enrich their own bottom line." Her past encounters have circulated online. The Wednesday incident was the first time, however, that the police got involved.

is basically accurate.

I don't think the robot has actually been given bad-faith programming to never yield to assert dominance, because I don't think that's something that would be possible to reliably program into present-day robots. I think that the robot is probably programmed to stop moving if it detects an obstacle in front of it, which is only a problem if someone like Marvin who openly states that they have an ideological problem with a corporation using delivery robots deliberately interferes with them on the street.

If a human is blind or in a wheelchair and unable to move, that shouldn't be a crime; but also it should be a reason for people nearby, or perhaps the cops, to help them move, in part so that they stop blocking the sidewalk. And if a person who is blind or in a wheelchair deliberately stays put in the sidewalk blocking it for other peoples' use despite offers to help them move; then they are committing the same kind of crime as Marvin and should be arrested on the same charge.

Dusseldorf 39 minutes ago | parent

The robot was absolutely free to go around her, I truly don't see how what she did was illegal. The next time my kids are out doing sidewalk chalk and the mail carrier walks by, should the kids be arrested for obstructing mail delivery?

JuniperMesos 33 minutes ago | parent

If your kids are making a point of getting out their sidewalk chalk to block the way of the mail carrier every time they see one, because they have a political grievance against the post office and want to do everything in their power to interfere with mail delivery, then yes they should be arrested for this. This is quite possibly already a federal crime, in fact.

ysleepy 38 minutes ago | parent

Yea, protest should happen where it doesn't bother anyone. Right.

JuniperMesos 23 minutes ago | parent

If someone is bothering me, I don't care if they claim to be doing it in the name of a political protest or not, I just want them to stop. And if they don't stop then I want the criminal justice system to compel them to stop, if necessary with violence (the cops arresting someone is absolutely an act of violence, one that I completely approve of in many cases).

tyrust 18 minutes ago | parent

Your claim is that if someone is bothering you then they should be arrested?

I dunno about you, but that's not really how I want our society to work.

As other people have point out, the robot could have navigated around the blockage. Just as you could walk away from someone bothering you without getting the police involved lol.

devindotcom 51 minutes ago | parent

good for her. nonviolent obstruction of a commercial endeavor she opposes, much like a sit-in. whether you agree with her perspective or not I think it is important to support her ability to protest in this way, though (as she is well aware) it may come with consequences.

popularrecluse 48 minutes ago | parent

What if the robot was delivering insulin? Would it be such a noble act then?

Not saying I disagree in principle, but the protestor assumes a lot of knowledge.

pryelluw 46 minutes ago | parent

Are there food delivery robots that deliver insulin?

popularrecluse 46 minutes ago | parent

You're assuming you know what it's carrying. For that matter, the food may be medically urgent for this person.

tripleee 41 minutes ago | parent

Maybe it's medically urgent for this woman to express her frustration at the robots? Maybe it's her only outlet

devindotcom 32 minutes ago | parent

it would be irresponsible for us to assume otherwise!

forgetfreeman 39 minutes ago | parent

So medically urgent the slowest delivery option available is selected? I mean, I kinda get the idea of trying to win an argument online but have some dignity yeah?

newsy-combi 38 minutes ago | parent

It may have carried arms for a terrorist! That woman may be a hero!1!

unsnap_biceps 24 minutes ago | parent

Schrödinger's Robot Carrier. It's simultaneously carrying weapons for terrorists and life saving medication.

walt_grata 45 minutes ago | parent

I'll bet the person protesting would be of the opinion that it should be delivered by a person regardless of what it was.

Regardless there is a stark difference between medication, which is necessary, and hot prepared meals, which are a luxury.

bradgranath 43 minutes ago | parent

There is no way in a cold hell that fucking UberEats would ever be brave enough to accept the liability necessary for that to be a thing.

RobotToaster 42 minutes ago | parent

It would be incredibly irresponsible to trust the delivery of medication to an unreliable robot.

popularrecluse 40 minutes ago | parent

Never had a pizza show up late from a person?

happytoexplain 33 minutes ago | parent

Key word was "unreliable", not "robot".

nanolith 41 minutes ago | parent

I'd say that this would bring up a bigger issue: why would Uber Eats be in the business of using robot couriers to deliver vital medications? Sandwiches or non-essential goods? Sure, I can understand this maybe, bracketing societal issues that these machines represent.

Prescription medications are controlled. If this robot is damaged or destroyed, the patient may not get their insulin at all without further authorization from their doctor or their insurance company. Those logistical issues are much thornier than a retired professor blocking a delivery robot.

popularrecluse 36 minutes ago | parent

I think you're missing my point. It's not that it's an Uber eats robot today.

But also diabetic hypoglycemia is a thing too, which could be the case for the person ordering. For the sake of argument.

nanolith 24 minutes ago | parent

I'm not missing your point. I'm pointing out that it's an appeal to extremes that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Why insulin? Why not have the robot deliver premature babies from a regional hospital to a central hospital, on a battery powered NICU that only has 30 minutes of battery power?

The argument is unlikely.

antonvs 40 minutes ago | parent

The protestor assumes nothing more than that these are Uber Eats robots. Getting your Big Mac without moving your ass off the couch doesn't have quite the same moral status as having insulin delivered.

bradgranath 34 minutes ago | parent

If you need insulin for emergency purposes, call fucking 911, please for the love of god, don't manage your medical emergencies with app based delivery couriers.

alamortsubite 39 minutes ago | parent

Nice try, but the reality is this was just somebody's burrito. And if it were my burrito, I wouldn't be the least bit mad.

analog31 38 minutes ago | parent

Insulin... to children.

devindotcom 33 minutes ago | parent

you're right. for that matter I suppose ICE could also be carrying insulin. better not protest them either.

BLKNSLVR 17 minutes ago | parent

Insulin delivery is too important to be left to sidewalk robots that are easily stolen, blocked, destroyed (esp. in Philly), or otherwise prone to failure for technical, new technology reasons.

dist-epoch 45 minutes ago | parent

so you would agree with me obstructing the entry to a local library, because I am an Amazon fanboy and I oppose local libraries

bradgranath 42 minutes ago | parent

That is how picket lines work, yes.

embedding-shape 42 minutes ago | parent

As long as you agree with the consequences of that (You'll be arrested quickly), sure why not?

devindotcom 39 minutes ago | parent

well yes. if you are OK with getting arrested and charged for demonstrating your political convictions, I support your nonviolent protest. this isn't the gotcha you seem to think it is.

swatcoder 36 minutes ago | parent

Ethical questions like this are a lot easier to discuss if you take for granted that people are acting in good faith.

If you truly cared that much about Amazon and truly felt library participation was so heinous that it ought be obstructed, I think a lot of people would be very skeptical and a lot of people would disagree with that perspective, but yes, those of us who believed you were acting earnestly would indeed appreciate you standing up for your principles in a way that was impactful but not violent.

There's less skepticism of sincerity here and more agreement with the fundamental concern here, but the respect for principle and action covers both, yes.

II2II 29 minutes ago | parent

It's civil disobedience, at least once she refused to step aside when told to do so by the police officer. (I don't know if she was breaking the law by obstructing the robot.) So yeah, I would say there is nothing inherently wrong with you obstructing the entry of the local library -- provided you are willing to be peacefully arrested.

That doesn't mean that I agree with your right to obstruct entry into the library, nor does it mean that I agree with your reasons for blocking entry to the library. I also suspect that the courts would reject your reasoning.

tptacek 43 minutes ago | parent

Part of the idea of protesting like this is to elicit arrest. That's what civil disobedience is. It's not a coherent protest strategy if you factor enforcement out!

bradgranath 50 minutes ago | parent

I do this whenever possible. I honestly don't understand why these aren't constantly vandalized. I just wanna peacefully protest them like this ex prof, but there's plenty of folks out there who'd like a free meal that's rolling by in a beach cooler that stops when you stand in its way.

mlyle 44 minutes ago | parent

Is it not better for takeout food to be traveling this way than by car?

bradgranath 41 minutes ago | parent

I don't want a creepy remote control beach cooler filming me period.

Novosell 36 minutes ago | parent

I'm not sure blocking it is gonna make it film you less.

bradgranath 23 minutes ago | parent

Heh, you got me there. But, it seems like the only legal way to make them unreliable. Have considered turning it upside down, covering or spraying it with paint, or just straight up picking it up and putting it in my van and driving it out to the middle of nowhere, but pretty sure I'd only be able to pick off a few of them before I picked up serious charges.

Mebe could design a sort of cattle guard like snare to embed in my driveway that passes humans, but eats hoverboard wheels.

edelbitter 20 minutes ago | parent

Cars occupy public spaces where more efficient modes of transport have already been mostly driven out, while delivery robots conquer additional public space.

JuniperMesos 18 minutes ago | parent

Preventing this from happening, so we can have reliable robot delivery service, is the point of having an institution of police that can carry out disorderly conduct arrests.

tripleee 46 minutes ago | parent

and yet no-one is arrested when these things block pedestrians

650REDHAIR 40 minutes ago | parent

Or when, for example, Waymo blocks my ambulance or public transit.

bradgranath 37 minutes ago | parent

THIS. They are so fucking slow, and drive straight down the center blocking the whole sidewalk.

morkalork 30 minutes ago | parent

Jaywalking only became a crime because of lobbying from automobile companies. Are you really surprised in who is getting criminalized here now with delivery bots?

olalonde 46 minutes ago | parent

Maybe it's Bluesky selection bias, but it feels like are a large chunk of social science professors are essentially full-time political activists.

dist-epoch 44 minutes ago | parent

you got the causality wrong. political activists become social science professors

paulryanrogers 44 minutes ago | parent

This one is retired, so I suppose they could be protesting full time. Someone certainly has to in this lawless age.

vatsachak 46 minutes ago | parent

Apparently these robots are classified as pedestrians in Philly. This is a huge mistake, they should be the same as bicycles

Human-Cabbage 45 minutes ago | parent

I don’t agree with her stance, but it’s absurd to call standing in the sidewalk “disorderly conduct.” I hope the judge sees it that way too and dismisses the charge.

mlyle 43 minutes ago | parent

Standing in the sidewalk, and refusing to get out of the way of another sidewalk user.

I mean, I could block a wheelchair user by standing in a cut-out, too. Is that OK?

Human-Cabbage 42 minutes ago | parent

A wheelchair user is a person. Uber’s property is not.

rahimnathwani 37 minutes ago | parent

If an empty self-driving wheelchair were on its way to pick up its owner, would it be OK for a pedestrian to block its way?

crote 32 minutes ago | parent

There are no self-driving wheelchairs, let alone ones driving outside.

And in what world is it possibly driving around empty? Where's the owner, crawling around on the floor for fun?

rahimnathwani 18 minutes ago | parent

There may be no self-driving wheelchairs today, but they will probably exist in a year or two. If/when they do exist, and a self-driving wheelchair was returning to its owner's home after being repaired or tuned up, would it be OK for a pedestrian to block its path, since it's not human nor currently carrying a human?

Dusseldorf 30 minutes ago | parent

It might be immoral, but certainly not illegal. But, what if the person it was driving to was planning to use it to commit crimes?! Then would it be okay?

crote 34 minutes ago | parent

Just because something is physically on the sidewalk doesn't mean it is a "sidewalk user".

If you ask me that thing is an autonomous motor vehicle, and as such belongs on the road and its use of the sidewalk is illegal. Just like it would be if its larger Waymo cousin tried to drive there.

Besides, that robot is also blocking and refusing to go out of the way of the human. There are no laws regulating who has to yield on a sidewalk, so good luck figuring our which one is in the wrong.

sublinear 45 minutes ago | parent

Is this the new "dog bites man"?

georgeburdell 44 minutes ago | parent

Amen, our fast food deliveries should only be made by humans with questionable immigration status in leased Priuses, and then only so efficiently that they forego bathroom breaks

650REDHAIR 37 minutes ago | parent

Why are those the only two options in your mind?

jawns 44 minutes ago | parent

Here's the relevant criminal code for disorderly conduct in Philly, if anyone wants to play armchair lawyer:

https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/philadelphia/latest/ph...

GauntletWizard 41 minutes ago | parent

I'm sympathetic to her cause; these robots are a waste of space, poorly designed and behaved - the ultimate bad neighbor as you walk down the street. I do believe that delivery robots are inevitable, and I welcome them when they come - but these are not that, and the combination of fees and fines should keep the current model off the streets.

alamortsubite 41 minutes ago | parent

Now that the cops have helped her get the message out, by arresting her, would a better approach be to go up to the robot, say "Hi, I'm giving these out for free today, if you don't want one, let me know," put a bag over the camera pod, and leave? It seems like her time is too valuable to waste actually blocking the robot.

jrochkind1 37 minutes ago | parent

I think that actually would be much more likely to result in a charge that would be harder to defend against, by intentionally interfering with someone else's property in a more physical/touch way. computer programmers are among the ones who mistakenly that think a charade where you pretend like you might think the robot can respond and say "no thanks" (and weren't really giving them out for free to anyone else) is a legal defense. The law does not work that way.

alamortsubite 12 minutes ago | parent

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I'm a lion tamer and I have plenty of bags to give away.

bonoboTP 40 minutes ago | parent

These things should not be allowed to use sidewalks. They are a disturbance and annoyance taking space away from humans walking, chatting, etc.

I don't think that saving delivery jobs is the main issue, these jobs didn't even exist a few years ago and their working conditions are anyway quite bad. It's a bigger social question why deliveries are getting so common nowadays across many countries including also different parts of Europe. I already find delivery scooters unseemly and they often drive recklessly. Ramping up this stuff even more will just lead to more social isolation, and with that conflict and generally low-trust societies.

I wonder if there is some kind of city tax on these robots. You certainly shouldn't be allowed to just put an unlimited number of these things on the sidewalks and push the negative externalities on everyone else. Same way you need permits for drones, which are also a visual pollution and potential constant privacy invasion. Cars on the road are already taxed, not sure about these.

gvfsa 36 minutes ago | parent

Really you can't see why getting stuff delivered to your door is popular, or is this a rhetorical question

swatcoder 30 minutes ago | parent

I don't think they're saying they're confused about the psyche of individual people electing for delivery.

The "social question" to explore is about how so many people collectively came to see leaving the house, interacting with others humans, and setting aside work or idle distractions as bad things to be bought off with cash that we had to work to earn.

We know that people like delivery and we know that people don't like the alternatives I mention above, but that wasn't always the case and it's probably worth slowing down to think about what change and whether that might correlate with other concerns.

gvfsa 25 minutes ago | parent

Ah, that one is easy. These services would have been popular in the past had they existed, but they didn't. There were no apps and no immigrant slave labour. Now that these things exist, the services exist and have become popular. Turns out people like others doing stuff for them. For example, maids. Who wouldn’t want to have one if they could pay for her?

swatcoder 13 minutes ago | parent

You might want to check your priors.

Suitably cheap labor and the opportunity to hire them has almost never not been available, but industrial-society middle class people who could otherwise afford it long found it to be a luxury to indulge in only occasionally (family pizza night, a cleaning service before the big party, etc) -- not because of unavailability or inaffordability but because class-culture norms acknoweledged it as irresponsible, wasteful, and foolish.

It would be embarrassing largesse to have somebody make a $7 iced coffee and then have somebody else deliver it for another $5. It would be like going to the grocery store in a tuxedo. You might be able to afford it, you might own a tuxedo, but it was just seen as sort of an absurd class theater.

Those norms have changed radically in the last couple decades, and not just on this matter.

pseudo0 30 minutes ago | parent

A delivery robot has much fewer externalities than your typical delivery person. In a lot of big cities, the person delivering your order will typically be using an illegal e-bike or scooter, flagrantly disobeying traffic laws, and completely uninsured. Oh and good luck enforcing any judgements on them, since they look nothing like the ID used to register for the app.

JuniperMesos 15 minutes ago | parent

This is a major reason I actively want human delivery people to be replaced by robots, I expect that in the long run the negative externalities of the sorts of people who in practice do delivery work are greater than the negative externalities of delivery robots.

bonoboTP 8 minutes ago | parent

Humans can't be scaled as fast as robot deployments. A few are okay but there is no limit to it. A person has to live somewhere and even illegal immigration isn't fully frictionless.

I think autonomous cars will also cause problems because currently if nobody is driving it, it has to stay parked. When it becomes autonomous, you can send it on errands or even to just drive around and try to grab a better parking spot etc. It will mean more humanless cars filling up roads, leading to a feeling of an inhuman ghost town.

morninglight 28 minutes ago | parent

Is it customary to tip these delivery devices?

I suggest they should be tipped on their back.

This lady has my full support.

jnwatson 39 minutes ago | parent

It is fantastic that someone is defending the noble long-standing profession of Door Dash driver. Its long history and entry path for long careers in delivery driving are fundamental to the strong middle class of this country.

Let's continue this process and protest the use of other automation like commercial dishwashers and street sweeping trucks. After all, they are displacing vitally important jobs.

RobotToaster 32 minutes ago | parent

People have been delivering pizza since... well since pizza was invented probably.

It's only recently that companies like doordash turned it into gig faux contractors.

RobotToaster 38 minutes ago | parent

Needs to be more people blocking these robo-scabs.

ckwalsh 33 minutes ago | parent

If a new part of this arrest is that the robots are considered to be pedestrians, I wonder what the police would do if the professor replayed the exact same circumstances with a friend in place of the robot?

Decide one of them is delivering something, run into each other at the exact same spot, and call the police to resolve it?

ok123456 32 minutes ago | parent

What's to stop someone from going full Gallagher, just going to town with a 16lb sledgehammer, on these things?

crote 28 minutes ago | parent

They have cameras, presumably livestreaming back to the mothership for that exact reason.

ok123456 27 minutes ago | parent

Why would that stop someone?

crote 21 minutes ago | parent

People usually don't like sitting in jail for destruction of property. Having videotaped evidence of your crime tends to rapidly lead to that.

amelius 23 minutes ago | parent

I'm against them too, except ... in case someone is not physically capable to go out and get dinner.

If I was sick at home, I would be very angry at that professor.

PinkMilkshake 21 minutes ago | parent

We've already ceded so much public space to vehicles and now we must give up the last walkable slivers to commercial robots. Fuck them.