51 points johnnyApplePRNG 1 hour ago 99 comments
JuniperMesos 52 minutes ago | parent
> Officers approached Marvin after she'd been there "quite a long time," she said. They asked her to step aside and let the robot complete its delivery. When she repeatedly refused, they arrested her for disorderly conduct.
Good. I want delivery robots to be able to operate in public, I don't want people like Marvin to be blocking them because they disapprove of the concept of delivery robots or think it's bad that they're displacing human jobs, and I think that a disorderly conduct arrest is an eminently reasonable response from the criminal justice system.
> Marvin, who plans to contest the charge on the grounds of her First Amendment right to protest, has been undeterred by the arrest. She plans to continue blocking Uber Eats robots and chatting with curious passersby who ask what she's doing.
The first amendment doesn't and shouldn't protect interfering with reasonable delivery robot use of the public streets; indeed the law should protect the rights of operators of delivery robots to have their robots deliver items to customers without interference. The criminal justice system should absolutely incarcerate her if she publicly intends to continue interfering with delivery robots.
bradgranath 47 minutes ago | parent
gravypod 32 minutes ago | parent
I am not a lawyer but I don't know if the first amendment allows you to block access from others to things. Some things similar to this are covered in this ACLU blog post: https://www.aclu-il.org/news/when-else-can-government-regula....
mlyle 30 minutes ago | parent
Picket lines that actually block other people from crossing instead of trying to persuade them not to? Yes. Use of threats, physically blocking, or just general impediment? Yes.
Not only does it violate state law (e.g. obstruction of free movement, interference with a business open to the public, false imprisonment, and assault are all offenses here in California depending on the facts), but it also violates NLRA rules.
(e.g. a recent labor case found repeated 1 to 4 minute "inadvertent" blockages unlawful -- https://www.laborrelationslawinsider.com/2018/02/the-nlrb-si...)
The Moscone Act that recognizes picketing federally also makes clear that this is not OK.
> It is not the intent of this section to permit conduct that is unlawful including breach of the peace, disorderly conduct, the unlawful blocking of access or egress to premises where a labor dispute exists, or other similar unlawful activity.
bryanlarsen 28 minutes ago | parent
crote 42 minutes ago | parent
It's a standoff. She's literally just standing there. She doesn't move out of her way to let the robot pass - but neither does the robot move to let her pass!
So why should she be the only one arrested and incarcerated? Why not arrest the robot for the same crime?
Sidewalks are for humans to walk on, not dedicated travel corridors for commercial robots. If those robots can't play nice and yield to pedestrians, then they don't belong on the sidewalk.
JuniperMesos 36 minutes ago | parent
crote 23 minutes ago | parent
Who's to say the robot hasn't been given bad-faith programming to never yield to assert dominance? What if the human had been blind or in a wheelchair, unable to move out of the way?
JuniperMesos 8 minutes ago | parent
> Marvin, 78, said she's not sure how many times she's blocked the path of these robots, which hit the streets of Philadelphia in March. The University of Pennsylvania professor emeritus has made a practice of it to protest "corporations that displace human delivery workers in order to enrich their own bottom line." Her past encounters have circulated online. The Wednesday incident was the first time, however, that the police got involved.
is basically accurate.
I don't think the robot has actually been given bad-faith programming to never yield to assert dominance, because I don't think that's something that would be possible to reliably program into present-day robots. I think that the robot is probably programmed to stop moving if it detects an obstacle in front of it, which is only a problem if someone like Marvin who openly states that they have an ideological problem with a corporation using delivery robots deliberately interferes with them on the street.
If a human is blind or in a wheelchair and unable to move, that shouldn't be a crime; but also it should be a reason for people nearby, or perhaps the cops, to help them move, in part so that they stop blocking the sidewalk. And if a person who is blind or in a wheelchair deliberately stays put in the sidewalk blocking it for other peoples' use despite offers to help them move; then they are committing the same kind of crime as Marvin and should be arrested on the same charge.
Dusseldorf 39 minutes ago | parent
JuniperMesos 33 minutes ago | parent
ysleepy 38 minutes ago | parent
JuniperMesos 23 minutes ago | parent
tyrust 18 minutes ago | parent
I dunno about you, but that's not really how I want our society to work.
As other people have point out, the robot could have navigated around the blockage. Just as you could walk away from someone bothering you without getting the police involved lol.
devindotcom 51 minutes ago | parent
popularrecluse 48 minutes ago | parent
Not saying I disagree in principle, but the protestor assumes a lot of knowledge.
pryelluw 46 minutes ago | parent
popularrecluse 46 minutes ago | parent
forgetfreeman 39 minutes ago | parent
walt_grata 45 minutes ago | parent
Regardless there is a stark difference between medication, which is necessary, and hot prepared meals, which are a luxury.
bradgranath 43 minutes ago | parent
nanolith 41 minutes ago | parent
Prescription medications are controlled. If this robot is damaged or destroyed, the patient may not get their insulin at all without further authorization from their doctor or their insurance company. Those logistical issues are much thornier than a retired professor blocking a delivery robot.
popularrecluse 36 minutes ago | parent
But also diabetic hypoglycemia is a thing too, which could be the case for the person ordering. For the sake of argument.
nanolith 24 minutes ago | parent
Why insulin? Why not have the robot deliver premature babies from a regional hospital to a central hospital, on a battery powered NICU that only has 30 minutes of battery power?
The argument is unlikely.
antonvs 40 minutes ago | parent
bradgranath 34 minutes ago | parent
alamortsubite 39 minutes ago | parent
analog31 38 minutes ago | parent
devindotcom 33 minutes ago | parent
BLKNSLVR 17 minutes ago | parent
dist-epoch 45 minutes ago | parent
bradgranath 42 minutes ago | parent
embedding-shape 42 minutes ago | parent
devindotcom 39 minutes ago | parent
swatcoder 36 minutes ago | parent
If you truly cared that much about Amazon and truly felt library participation was so heinous that it ought be obstructed, I think a lot of people would be very skeptical and a lot of people would disagree with that perspective, but yes, those of us who believed you were acting earnestly would indeed appreciate you standing up for your principles in a way that was impactful but not violent.
There's less skepticism of sincerity here and more agreement with the fundamental concern here, but the respect for principle and action covers both, yes.
II2II 29 minutes ago | parent
That doesn't mean that I agree with your right to obstruct entry into the library, nor does it mean that I agree with your reasons for blocking entry to the library. I also suspect that the courts would reject your reasoning.
tptacek 43 minutes ago | parent
bradgranath 50 minutes ago | parent
mlyle 44 minutes ago | parent
bradgranath 41 minutes ago | parent
Novosell 36 minutes ago | parent
bradgranath 23 minutes ago | parent
Mebe could design a sort of cattle guard like snare to embed in my driveway that passes humans, but eats hoverboard wheels.
edelbitter 20 minutes ago | parent
JuniperMesos 18 minutes ago | parent
tripleee 46 minutes ago | parent
650REDHAIR 40 minutes ago | parent
bradgranath 37 minutes ago | parent
morkalork 30 minutes ago | parent
olalonde 46 minutes ago | parent
vatsachak 46 minutes ago | parent
Human-Cabbage 45 minutes ago | parent
mlyle 43 minutes ago | parent
I mean, I could block a wheelchair user by standing in a cut-out, too. Is that OK?
Human-Cabbage 42 minutes ago | parent
rahimnathwani 37 minutes ago | parent
crote 32 minutes ago | parent
And in what world is it possibly driving around empty? Where's the owner, crawling around on the floor for fun?
rahimnathwani 18 minutes ago | parent
Dusseldorf 30 minutes ago | parent
crote 34 minutes ago | parent
If you ask me that thing is an autonomous motor vehicle, and as such belongs on the road and its use of the sidewalk is illegal. Just like it would be if its larger Waymo cousin tried to drive there.
Besides, that robot is also blocking and refusing to go out of the way of the human. There are no laws regulating who has to yield on a sidewalk, so good luck figuring our which one is in the wrong.
sublinear 45 minutes ago | parent
jawns 44 minutes ago | parent
https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/philadelphia/latest/ph...
GauntletWizard 41 minutes ago | parent
alamortsubite 41 minutes ago | parent
jrochkind1 37 minutes ago | parent
alamortsubite 12 minutes ago | parent
bonoboTP 40 minutes ago | parent
I don't think that saving delivery jobs is the main issue, these jobs didn't even exist a few years ago and their working conditions are anyway quite bad. It's a bigger social question why deliveries are getting so common nowadays across many countries including also different parts of Europe. I already find delivery scooters unseemly and they often drive recklessly. Ramping up this stuff even more will just lead to more social isolation, and with that conflict and generally low-trust societies.
I wonder if there is some kind of city tax on these robots. You certainly shouldn't be allowed to just put an unlimited number of these things on the sidewalks and push the negative externalities on everyone else. Same way you need permits for drones, which are also a visual pollution and potential constant privacy invasion. Cars on the road are already taxed, not sure about these.
gvfsa 36 minutes ago | parent
swatcoder 30 minutes ago | parent
The "social question" to explore is about how so many people collectively came to see leaving the house, interacting with others humans, and setting aside work or idle distractions as bad things to be bought off with cash that we had to work to earn.
We know that people like delivery and we know that people don't like the alternatives I mention above, but that wasn't always the case and it's probably worth slowing down to think about what change and whether that might correlate with other concerns.
gvfsa 25 minutes ago | parent
swatcoder 13 minutes ago | parent
Suitably cheap labor and the opportunity to hire them has almost never not been available, but industrial-society middle class people who could otherwise afford it long found it to be a luxury to indulge in only occasionally (family pizza night, a cleaning service before the big party, etc) -- not because of unavailability or inaffordability but because class-culture norms acknoweledged it as irresponsible, wasteful, and foolish.
It would be embarrassing largesse to have somebody make a $7 iced coffee and then have somebody else deliver it for another $5. It would be like going to the grocery store in a tuxedo. You might be able to afford it, you might own a tuxedo, but it was just seen as sort of an absurd class theater.
Those norms have changed radically in the last couple decades, and not just on this matter.
pseudo0 30 minutes ago | parent
JuniperMesos 15 minutes ago | parent
bonoboTP 8 minutes ago | parent
I think autonomous cars will also cause problems because currently if nobody is driving it, it has to stay parked. When it becomes autonomous, you can send it on errands or even to just drive around and try to grab a better parking spot etc. It will mean more humanless cars filling up roads, leading to a feeling of an inhuman ghost town.
morninglight 28 minutes ago | parent
I suggest they should be tipped on their back.
This lady has my full support.
jnwatson 39 minutes ago | parent
Let's continue this process and protest the use of other automation like commercial dishwashers and street sweeping trucks. After all, they are displacing vitally important jobs.
RobotToaster 32 minutes ago | parent
It's only recently that companies like doordash turned it into gig faux contractors.
RobotToaster 38 minutes ago | parent
ckwalsh 33 minutes ago | parent
Decide one of them is delivering something, run into each other at the exact same spot, and call the police to resolve it?
amelius 23 minutes ago | parent
If I was sick at home, I would be very angry at that professor.
PinkMilkshake 21 minutes ago | parent