Yet another Hacker News

132 points iamnothere 3 hours ago 71 comments

draw_down 3 hours ago | parent

> American courts generally decline to enforce foreign judgments that violate the United States Constitution

Good grief. This is sad stuff.

mahboi 1 hour ago | parent

What else should happen in this case?

mm263 2 hours ago | parent

This is just laying down the ground work for Russia-style deep packet inspection. “We don’t have a capability to censor the foreign internet, so we need measures to cut off the violating sites from our side”

iamnothere 2 hours ago | parent

Likely yes IMO, especially since the UK is making moves to militarize.

andyhedges 2 hours ago | parent

I hate to break it to you, but the UK has had a military for some time now.

DANmode 2 hours ago | parent

So has France, but their nuclear weapons program is new.

I don’t think it’s weird to point out the little guys (especially former or current EU) getting strapped.

mig39 2 hours ago | parent

I think both the UK and France have had nuclear weapons programs since the 50s and 60s. Are you thinking about the "Northwood declaration" ? Where they both said they would coordinate their nuclear responses?

AnonymousPlanet 2 hours ago | parent

The first nuclear weapon tests for the UK and France were in 1952 and 1960, respectively. Nothing about that is new.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_of_the_United_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_and_weapons_of_mass_des...

DANmode 1 hour ago | parent

> Nothing about that is new.

Now we’re both wrong!

The French are now using submarines (striking distance and speed, blah blah)

and are apparently being looked at as the leader of “forward deterrence” in the region.

https://tvpworld.com/93637117/frances-nuclear-umbrella-which...

everfrustrated 46 minutes ago | parent

The French have always had a very strong submarine fleet with nuclear launch capability. Nothing new about this in the slightest. This puts them in a very select group and is what still gives them some clout on the international stage.

mahboi 1 hour ago | parent

This isn't what "militarize" means in this context or mostly anywhere

TZubiri 2 hours ago | parent

deep packet inspection is not really necessary, headers contain information about the destination, as long as you don’t encrypt those, there is no need to do any decryption.

mm263 2 hours ago | parent

You just need to follow this to the logical conclusion. They’ll ban using your proposed method, people will switch to VPN and other modern methods and to combat people still accessing the forbidden internet they will need DPI and TSPU-like devices

9x39 1 hour ago | parent

I think the conclusion is more like mandating home and business web access is proxied at a national level and most other protocols disallowed. Use of VPNs without a VPN tax stamp and key escrow is prima facie evidence of violation of the Counter-Terrorism and Security act. Use of non-standard protocols is assumed to be criminal intent. Check with your approved internet provider for how to access the Internet safely.

TZubiri 21 minutes ago | parent

What proposed method? I'm explaining how things work. In order to send a packet, the destination address needs to be known to the delivering entities. Encryption occurs by using enveloping, the envelope is unencrypted, but the content is encrpyted.

This is how it works, if you want I can explain to you why it works like this, or you can work it out from first principles. But this is not a proposal.

VPNs are an asterisk and they work not by avoiding this natural unavoidable principle, but by tunneling, the VPN or proxy vendor is putting themselves on the headers, and on the backend they still route the packets to the destination by putting the intended destination on the headers.

If these VPNs don't comply with local regulations and are used to evade national restrictions they can and are often themselves subject to bans. But even if not, it acts as a sort of waiver and compromising element for all illicit activity.

Sometimes it's not necessary to completely outlaw something, it is sufficient to make it so that engaging in the outlawed activity is sufficiently uncomfortable and clear that it is illegal, forcing users to undeniably acknowledge they are avoiding the law. An example of this is trying to watch pirated movies without paying for them, yeah you can do it, but you gotta do some shady shit and dodge a lot of malware, and eat shady gambling ads and etcetera.

In addition to making you feel like an asshole, it removes any recourse you may have, it's very hard to make any claim later, you cannot really complain later if you were accessing it illegally to begin with. Nobody is going to pursue you to the end of the world not to access a pirated movie or an illegal website, but they pursue the distributor and make things very uncomfortable enough so that you are effectively hiding like a fiending outlaw.

ifwinterco 1 hour ago | parent

I think it’s an open question whether the British state has the technical chops, money and willingness to implement a Great Firewall type solution.

The state isn’t totally incompetent but doing it properly would be a serious undertaking, the kind of thing where the recent track record of big government tech projects isn’t great

Orygin 1 hour ago | parent

They already track everything going through the undersea cables, why couldn't they start blocking at those points?

nickdothutton 2 hours ago | parent

When European governments say they will lead in technology regulation, this is what they mean.

Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent

This was such a weird case. Usually when a country goes after a foreign business they enforce it by imposing restrictions within their own borders and threatening the operators with legal action if they ever enter the country. If the operators don’t visit the country and their banking doesn’t cross a business that must follow those laws (which is hard), it’s otherwise symbolic.

I may be reading too much into the editorialized writeups about Ofcom but even their statements imply they thought they were just going to impose their laws globally and that other countries would line up to help them do it?

This quote from the court is amazing:

> American courts generally decline to enforce foreign judgments that violate the United States Constitution

Indeed. Who could have predicted this?

Which raises the scarier question of why they tried this at all? Was the defeat a planned showing to justify future action to justify more control of the internet, as Preston Byrne speculates? Are they using this as a demonstration of why internet censorship is the only solution? It’s hard to imagine why they thought they were going to get anywhere with this case, unless failing was the goal

nickdothutton 2 hours ago | parent

It’s largely political. Even the rank and file staff there agree that it’s nonsense, being done for appearances.

topspin 2 hours ago | parent

Exactly. Ofcom understood it needed a dog and pony show to answer the latest UK moral panic over 4chan. The headlines have moved on, and they can safely take off their costumes.

p-e-w 2 hours ago | parent

> they thought they were just going to impose their laws globally and that other countries would line up to help them do it?

Why is this surprising? The United States does this all the time, successfully.

Indian citizens living in India, who have never left India and only do business with Indian entities, have to declare compliance with US laws (FATCA) when opening a bank account in India with an Indian bank. This is enforced by the Indian government.

wonderwonder 2 hours ago | parent

The difference is that Britain is not a super power and has not been for a long time. There is only China and the US. All other western nations and many eastern ones are shells of what they once were.

Muromec 1 hour ago | parent

>Indian citizens living in India, who have never left India and only do business with Indian entities

That's just one handshake away from their bank which does have business with US and their dollaridos.

thaumasiotes 30 minutes ago | parent

> Why is this surprising? The United States does this all the time, successfully.

The surprise is that Britain is a local backwater and the United States isn't. You can't throw your weight around if you don't have any weight.

jack_pp 2 hours ago | parent

It's about honor, I remember Saddam Hussein saying that after they held against the US for 40 days they "won" the war, because in their culture when a higher power entity goes against a weaker one, it is without honor and the weaker entity "wins" honor by being able to defend for that long.

nilamo 2 hours ago | parent

That's not unique to their culture. Remember The Alamo? That was 190 years ago and we still celebrate our defeat.

philipov 2 hours ago | parent

Maybe they weren't allowed to not try? Like adding Denuvo to your game doesn't stop piracy, but your investors will be angry if you don't make the (wasted) effort at due diligence.

DANmode 2 hours ago | parent

Those toolkits don’t even seem to be intended to stop piracy - they seem to add value by slowing it down long enough to make the first 2 weeks (days) of sales. The people using them usually understand that.

Gormo 1 hour ago | parent

Yes, but the point that the motivation for taking these actions isn't for them to be effective, but to satisfy performative requirements imposed by external parties.

DANmode 1 hour ago | parent

Yes

munk-a 54 minutes ago | parent

There is an old saying "Nobody gets fired for buying IBM". This is just yet another facet of CYA where we know it's of limited utility and the cracking will happen either way but if you specifically argued against Denuvo before the cracking happens it's your ass on the line for it.

everforward 2 hours ago | parent

I actually wouldn’t have been shocked if other countries had helped, and the powers that be may regret enforcing their sovereignty here.

Countries used to enforce this at their borders (for foreign information) because it largely worked. They couldn’t stop 100% of the copies of the book, but they could stop there being enough copies for it to be part of the cultural zeitgeist (most of the time).

Not anymore. The companies don’t have a local HQ to harass, and the information doesn’t flow through infrastructure the government owns. They’ve pretty much entirely lost the ability to control the flow of information, and they’ve largely lost the ability to control its direction either with the fall of major news outlets.

I don’t think they have the support for a China-style great firewall, but I’m not British so maybe I’m wrong.

I think it’s a good thing information is set free, but I see why they tried it. It’s the only politically tenable way they had to try to keep that control.

fidotron 2 hours ago | parent

While Ofcom were barmy to even try this there is a level of understandable annoyance outside the US that the US does get to project what it wants and other countries don't, and somewhere that will have contributed to supporting the effort to do this.

While the US isn't perfect it is also far from the worst conceivable entity to be in that position (and current UK and Australian governments provide easy examples). If they want to use their influence to promote free speech then good, because we need it. Just less of the mass surveillance of absolutely everyone at the same time, then we'd be good.

Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent

> there is a level of understandable annoyance outside the US that the US does get to project what it wants and other countries don't

In my comment I explained how countries, including the US, project their laws by imposing controls within their jurisdiction.

The weird part about this case is how they thought they could directly project their laws into another country in a way that overrides that country’s constitution, and they expected the other country to override their own constitution in agreement.

That’s not the same. This was something weirder, which is why there is speculation that it was designed to fail as a demonstration.

fidotron 2 hours ago | parent

That's exactly what the US do though. We recently saw server seizures in Amsterdam, there is the US Cloud act and so on.

The US fundamentally disagrees with other countries on the limits of their own jurisdiction to include basically anything tangentially related to the US.

Again, I am far from anti-US but any outsider can see this for what it is: a one way street.

appplication 1 hour ago | parent

Was this in violation of the Netherlands constitution or just not explicitly illegal in Amsterdam? I don’t know the details or the incident you’re referencing, but there is generally a distinction.

fidotron 1 hour ago | parent

Basic property rights. If they weren't breaking Dutch laws then the server shouldn't be seizable.

Let's see the Dutch get a US based server that is violating Dutch laws. It will never happen.

telotortium 1 hour ago | parent

Were they actually not breaking Dutch laws? Around terrorism-related activities I would guess the laws are fairly similar across Western countries, partly due to 9/11. Speech regulation has been consistently different between the US and Europe, including the UK - the US even passed laws to refuse to enforce UK libel judgments 15 years ago after Americans became aware of their abusive effects.

If European countries banded together to direct their banks to offer services to the sanctioned ICC judges, for example, I think the US would back down on that - yes even under Trump, although there would be some bluster first.

piltdownman 57 minutes ago | parent

European countries need to get off Mastercard/Visa and US Tech and Energy dependencies first, otherwise it's just a shakedown by the US every time they hit an external legal system.

// If European countries banded together to direct their banks to offer services to the sanctioned ICC judges, for example, I think the US would back down on that - yes even under Trump, although there would be some bluster first.

That's a very good way to force the Hague Invasion Act to manifest in some form or another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

Trump personally intervened when two US spooks were driving on the wrong side of the road in London, with the driver most likely on her phone, killed someone, and then fled the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Dunn

Compare this with a hispanic american who severely injured someone in similar circumstances. Extradition granted and was convicted for a 32 month prison sentence in the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y89k07we3o

SomaticPirate 1 hour ago | parent

This looks to be the case https://decrypt.co/381296/terrifying-precedent-dutch-hand-us...

The servers were seized under a mutual legal enforcement agreement and it remains to be seen if it underwent a separate Dutch legal review. Quite of a bit of legal footwork gets skipped when the “terrorism” charge is invoked. But it looks like the servers are not being physically turned over, the disks are being imaged and that is what is being transferred.

AlotOfReading 1 hour ago | parent

The US also has laws imposing restrictions on institutions outside their borders/jurisdiction. FATCA for example.

tracker1 2 hours ago | parent

As a US citizen, I'm inclined to agree.

philipwhiuk 1 hour ago | parent

Ofcom didn't "try this"

4chan is suing Ofcom, not the other way round.

margalabargala 1 hour ago | parent

> While Ofcom were barmy to even try this

Quote from the article:

> Ofcom has targeted 200-ish American platforms with censorship orders; only four of those sites, all of which are my clients, refused

Seems like Ofcom broadly got the result they wanted. A 98% success rate is not going to be particularly discouraging to them.

andybak 1 hour ago | parent

Presumably a decent chunk of those might now reconsider?

echoangle 19 minutes ago | parent

And also this only worked once, but in the future other entities getting sued now know they can just ignore it.

fidotron 1 hour ago | parent

Standard regulator strategy: try to make the one thing you actually want to comply be the odd one out and then point at them going "but why not you too?" (The FTC do this as well).

4chan was absolutely the defining target of this wave of noise, but X is what really bothers the UK establishment.

kitd 1 hour ago | parent

Ofcom knows it's barmy. They are pursuing foreign sites because a) they are required to by law, and b) they are under political pressure to do so. But I suspect they are quite happy that it has backfired, to help relieve some of that pressure and bring into the open the barminess of the OSA enterprise.

account42 2 hours ago | parent

I would expect that they expected to not be able to enforce it. It's a play to get the british public on board with even more draconian surveillance state laws and technologies which will be needed to protect their children from evil american companies.

schleck8 1 hour ago | parent

> Was the defeat a planned showing to justify future action to justify more control of the internet, as Preston Byrne speculates

When something can be explained by both incompetence and conspiracy, the correct explanation is usually incompetence.

vr46 1 hour ago | parent

The write-up from the lawyers is unintentionally hilarious

1. 4chan actually lost its case in the US District Court on 15 September 2026. (sauce: https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/us-court-dismisses-...

The judge dismissed its lawsuit against Ofcom for lack of jurisdiction, because Ofcom was protected by foreign sovereign immunity.

2. The judge's comments were obiter dicta observations that were not necessary to decide the case, rather than a binding ruling that Ofcom's actions were unconstitutional, making the headline somewhat selective, it's hardly the defeat of a giant regulatory system. Still, I suppose he needs to show he did something to earn his fees.

We could go on and on and fucking on about American double standards here:

Cuba. ABC being hassled over Jimmy Kimmel making gags about Kirk. The White House restricting reporting. Ending support for public broadcasting. Book bans, the CLOUD act, the TIKTOK DIVESTITURE fercrissakes. Sanctions on the ICC.

dofm 32 minutes ago | parent

> We could go on and on and fucking on about American double standards here

They have tariffs on foreign double standards because it's a key export business.

mattlondon 1 hour ago | parent

The other option (and this is I admit charitable) is that this was always obviously never going to work and this was all a performative political thing in the first place.

By deliberately going after unwinnable cases, there is perhaps here a deliberate attempt to project a "voice of common sense" - effectively demonstrating that this is uneforceable nonsense, regardless of what the then-current government and media insisted. So they make a big show of it being defeated in the hope that the powers that be seen sense and quietly drop it.

Or they really are delusional. I dunno.

cjs_ac 2 hours ago | parent

This fits quite neatly with Dominic Cummings' comments to the House of Lords Constitutional Committee[0] about how the British Civil Service can't do anything because no one with any talent wants to work there.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBBYvj4YQLE (full video is an hour and a half, but you can skip to any bit because he just makes the same handful of points over and over again)

Defletter 1 hour ago | parent

Here's the link to Parliament's own on-demand video: https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/c32e3478-65af-41b2-aa7...

I'm somewhat dubious of a Youtube channel called "Western Liberty" that was created the day of Cummings's testimony, which contains nothing but the session and short clips of it. Using the link above avoids any potential ad revenue going to that clearly political pointed channel.

For anyone that's interested, here are the links to the other sessions of this committee:

- 22nd April 2026: https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/e79ae489-4db6-4159-88b...

- 3rd June 2026: https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/f27d8b93-b09d-433a-8e6...

- 10th June 2026: https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/097aadbd-b58d-4f76-90e...

- 15th July 2026: https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/87f1e00f-82b5-432b-af6...

- 2nd September 2026: https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/110f81a5-32c4-4577-bab...

- 16th September 2026: https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/ecf7a237-54c9-40be-922...

TZubiri 2 hours ago | parent

does this mean the UK will block 4chan in the UK? if the defense is jurisdictional then 4chan can continue to serve US users, but there would be no recourse if the UK blocks it in their jurisdiction

miohtama 1 hour ago | parent

The UK ISPs already did this earlier. What Ofcom really wanted is to flex their muscle and kill 4chan because it represents Satan for them.

What Ofcom wants next is to make VPNs illegal.

crtasm 1 hour ago | parent

Did they fully block it or just put it on the blocklists that you can turn off in your account settings?

https://www.blocked.org.uk/site/http://www.4chan.org suggests the latter to me, but the checks aren't very recent

ryankrage77 1 hour ago | parent

In my experience, ISPs just 'block' it at the DNS level. Using another DNS provider 'unblocks' everything.

miohtama 1 hour ago | parent

Think of the kids the world we failed to protect by not having passport checks and government snitch at the 4chan login.

But don’t worry! We will check your passport when you open your phone (already live in the UK, efforts supported by the GBP 2M secret donation of Meta to NGOs).

And what’s the worst thing that could happen? No one would for sure arrest you for being critical of a foreign government.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/palestine-action...

not-kinsale-joe 1 hour ago | parent

It's annoying, in the UK you can browse 4chan but not Imgur

philipwhiuk 1 hour ago | parent

This was a fairly stupid case. Ofcom didn't try to enforce it abroad, 4chan sued Ofcom in case it did (mostly for PR purposes).

Ofcom knows its rulings don't apply internationally.

So yes, the status quo is enforced by the US courts, as if it was ever in doubt and nothing at all has changed.

Orygin 1 hour ago | parent

Didn't Ofcom send multiple threat letters to 4chan, requesting they comply with UK laws? That counts as trying to enforce it

gupti 54 minutes ago | parent

I hope the precedent doesn't change to trying to enforce fines on foreign companies by instead arresting and fining employees upon arrival to the UK.

Though I guess we've already seen something similar in 2024 with France and Telegram...

gupti 54 minutes ago | parent

I hope the precedent doesn't change to trying to enforce fines on foreign companies by instead arresting and fining employees upon arrival to the UK.

Though I guess we've already seen something similar in France with Telegram...

jalev 45 minutes ago | parent

Cool. So 4chan is going to get DNS blocked in the UK and I can finally stop hearing about this and all the Americans takes on what my country's enforcement mechanisms should be.

privacyishuman 8 minutes ago | parent

What should the rules and enforcement mechanisms be? It seems your country is unfree and getting worse in terms of digital freedom.

https://eylenburg.github.io/countries.htm

MisterMunchkin 25 minutes ago | parent

Good, fuck off ofcom. We always mocked Chinese censorship but we’re not really any different now.