274 points bo0tzz 1 hour ago 162 comments
shrubble 1 hour ago | parent
Reubachi 1 hour ago | parent
1. 59 million of those 60 million could be very short validity, duplicate enrollments from same private key/csr, etc. 2. I'm still not certain that that figure isn't including for example private roots/intermediates they've issued from.
That said they're a low volume (in terms of root/int) provider so I don't think the impact of them exiting will be great.
kbaker 58 minutes ago | parent
What does this mean from the press release? Were they only issuing other chained intermediates? Or did they never issue any ECC certificates from these at all, and everyone is paying the price?
I wonder if big roots with chained intermediates will now need to have serious pressure on their downstream intermediates to re-prove their need to exist. I know RHEL and Debian's strategy (if not others) was to pull the Comodo AAA Services root as well ...
mschuster91 1 hour ago | parent
sspiff 56 minutes ago | parent
Or silently spin out a subsidiary under a new name who takes over the cert business, and redirect existing customers there for renewals.
lenerdenator 49 minutes ago | parent
Don't these people pay any attention to politics?
Khoth 39 minutes ago | parent
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449#c30 They're being asked some very pointed questions about why they encountered problems with the key generation process at the time but didn't properly investigate.
ErikCorry 5 minutes ago | parent
Absolutely no way any OS or browser manufacturer forgives them and let's their certs validate anything in the future.
altbdoor 1 hour ago | parent
rarisma 1 hour ago | parent
luispa 1 hour ago | parent
zoobab 58 minutes ago | parent
4
sspiff 55 minutes ago | parent
knottn 49 minutes ago | parent
zoobab 38 minutes ago | parent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness
I had a bunch of openwrt routers based on the ADM5120 SoC, some of them were of different endianness, totally wth:
triceratops 37 minutes ago | parent
alt227 29 minutes ago | parent
triceratops 22 minutes ago | parent
Again you seem more concerned with grammar than, y'know, condemning racism, prejudice, or bigotry. They're all equally bad and closely related concepts. "A rose by another name" and so on.
Also modern usages of "racism" encapsulate all of these meanings. Languages change over time.
> You can be prejudiced to any group of people, doesnt mean that you are biggoted
Yes, that's literally what it means.
sspiff 16 minutes ago | parent
But either way, I find the reduction of the argument to the semantics of the word racism to be deflection. Wouldn't you agree the original comment was made in poor taste? Why did it need to include a reference to Indian and imply that all things Indian made are cheap or low quality?
We applied this kind of mindset to the Japanese in the 60s and 70s, and look where that got us. I witness it happening again in the 00s and 10s applied to Korean electronics (LG and Samsung mostly) while we were content with minor improvements over the status quo and innovating far too slowly.
Yes, this incident has an almost farcical amount of stupid attached to it, but the fact that it happened to an Indian company is in my eyes only coincidental. There are plenty of Silicon Valley startups and tech companies that are equally cavalier about aspects of security and apply the mentality of "we'll fix it in post" to anything but shipping features.
zoobab 12 minutes ago | parent
Most companies handle security very badly.
jen20 35 minutes ago | parent
kccqzy 15 minutes ago | parent
The key needs to mention which curve it is using.
nayuki 15 minutes ago | parent
Also note that using small numbers like 65537 for RSA public exponents is common practice.
g_a_a_s 1 hour ago | parent
What a weak minded statement. Just admit you messed up and call it a day.
ritzaco 1 hour ago | parent
abixb 35 minutes ago | parent
Folks in India — especially the boomer class — are trepidated by how they're perceived over actual substance and quality of their work (exceptions exist, of course).
Edit: Sudhir Kakar's (an Indian psychoanalyst) work on Indian identity (The Inner World, Intimate Relations) helped me decode my own origin culture's internal logic. Highly recommend it for people of South Asian diaspora.
profdevloper 29 minutes ago | parent
throw0101c 26 minutes ago | parent
> Izzat (Bengali: ইজ্জত; Hindi: इज़्ज़त; Urdu: عزت, romanized: 'izzat, lit. 'honour') literally translated: "respect" is a concept of prestige, dignity, and social respect.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzat
* Similar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)
suitormildest0j 25 minutes ago | parent
Also, this is the response from official Indian Ministry of Electronics & IT:
…” However, some social media accounts are indulging in fear mongering about the impact of this incident.…”
Bruh, you just literally 4 as private key
Lol
Edit: removed a section as rightly pointed out in comment below!
nayuki 20 minutes ago | parent
No, their private key is 4. Moreover, you wouldn't see the literal number 4 because the PEM key file would have the cryptographic sections encoded in base64.
suitormildest0j 13 minutes ago | parent
jcbrand 16 minutes ago | parent
abixb 6 minutes ago | parent
“One of eMudhra’s certificate authority private keys is the number 4. Not a number that starts with 4, or the number 4 followed by a few hundred random digits, just, 4… Another one is 56, and another is 115. I know, because I recovered all of them from their public certificates on my laptop just now, and it took less than a second,” wrote Helme.
Security researcher Scott Helme was among those who recovered the keys. This is a hall-of-fame level fail.
pizzafeelsright 10 minutes ago | parent
In martial arts the winner will often say "I got lucky" or "you almost had me" to allow the loser to save face, at least publicly, when in reality the skill gap is evident.
ignoramous 6 minutes ago | parent
Just the sheer size and diversity of the Indian "boomer class" could put such generalizations in doubt?
> As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian work culture, I can state with clarity
Pause to consider that the world might appear to you as you imagine it to be. That is, it might be holding up a mirror in to your own psyche.
isatty 1 hour ago | parent
remus 47 minutes ago | parent
xmcp123 37 minutes ago | parent
A unit test becoming prod data? That’s really all I’ve got and that’s pretty unforgivable.
kijin 33 minutes ago | parent
Some people just follow a spec and don't stop to think what they spec is supposed to accomplish.
__MatrixMan__ 33 minutes ago | parent
subscribed 33 minutes ago | parent
3form 54 minutes ago | parent
prodigycorp 50 minutes ago | parent
ChrisRR 50 minutes ago | parent
unsupp0rted 43 minutes ago | parent
e.g. Japanese culture in many circumstances requires a company to rush to apologize for the smallest perceived (not even actual) fault
hijuryutis 36 minutes ago | parent
ksenzee 31 minutes ago | parent
shadowgovt 9 minutes ago | parent
Certainly can't speak for the rest of the world.
numpad0 17 minutes ago | parent
War crimes stuffs is a separate and a bit more nuanced issue. It's also not just the simple matter of admitting or denying it.
kccqzy 24 minutes ago | parent
joecool1029 17 minutes ago | parent
For a something this big they'd probably have execs making a visit to a certain forest.
johanyc 6 minutes ago | parent
genidoi 43 minutes ago | parent
ojagodzinski 43 minutes ago | parent
learn about Izzat and Jugaad in their "culture". That explains the problem itself, as well as the reaction ;)
frenchtoast8 40 minutes ago | parent
It raises the question why these CAs agree to participate on this forum and then complain about doing so.
jesuswasjew 33 minutes ago | parent
gnfargbl 38 minutes ago | parent
The statement can use whatever weasel words it likes, but the action pretty clearly says "we aren't mature enough as an organisation to handle this responsibility." Which would be quite the concern for me, if I were a customer for one of eMudhra's other product lines.
jesuswasjew 38 minutes ago | parent
jason-phillips 36 minutes ago | parent
You apparently don't understand Indians.
jfyi 36 minutes ago | parent
I see this more as "we didn't know this was so complex and the juice no longer looks worth the squeeze."
qalmakka 34 minutes ago | parent
nujabe 25 minutes ago | parent
falsemyrmidon 10 minutes ago | parent
micromacrofoot 1 hour ago | parent
tetha 1 hour ago | parent
Good that we are now investing thousands of engineering hours globally to fix this.
Several tech stacks require upgrades of their runtime, python is an ungodly mess with certifi, but yes. It's just 1% of your revenue.
Sorry, it's been a long week.
mixdup 55 minutes ago | parent
But at the end of the day if you're not prepared to revoke the trust of any CA you trust, it's a you problem
tetha 53 minutes ago | parent
This demonstrates how hard we are messed up in a CA revocation. But no need to rub it in like that, is there?
andix 46 minutes ago | parent
purplesyringa 44 minutes ago | parent
trvz 38 minutes ago | parent
intorio 19 minutes ago | parent
mixdup 19 minutes ago | parent
"no one was quite prepared for intermediate certificate revocation" is actually worse because as an intermediate CA, they obviously didn't meet the requirements to be a full root CA, so why wouldn't they be more likely to need revocation than a root? Honestly more negligent than being unable to revoke a root.
wat10000 8 minutes ago | parent
That doesn't mean it's cheap or easy, or that it's reasonable for the responsible party to brush off all the havoc they've caused.
post-it 55 minutes ago | parent
It might even be sensible to intentionally revoke a small number of certificates every month, to make sure nobody is complacent.
hluska 35 minutes ago | parent
No, this is not even remotely sensible.
noitpmeder 28 minutes ago | parent
sophacles 28 minutes ago | parent
Code paths and procedures that aren't exercised regularly are broken.
Even better is having a way to reoke keys and big players occasionally include revoked keys in trust chains and blast a warning if the revoked key is considered valid.
Zobat 34 minutes ago | parent
We've had to rework part of our application and certificate use because of this.
hobofan 33 minutes ago | parent
Let's call it "Let's Decrypt!"
throw0101c 30 minutes ago | parent
I am reminded of the US DST changes back in the 2000s: there was all sorts of drama because a lot of software is written in the US, and there was much 'computerization' in the 1990s, but US coders had never personally experienced a DST rule change during that time period, so any change needed a reboot to pick up the new rules.
That drama led to (e.g.) periodic dynamic checking of /etc/localtime on various Unix-y system.
Sometimes you don't realize that things can be improved until to experience situations in which they currently suck.
kccqzy 17 minutes ago | parent
I can even hear this conversation happening: what? I need to open this America/Los_Angeles file just to convert a timestamp? What pretentious overengineering! I want a single-file executable with zero dependencies. Let me hard code the rules.
ryukoposting 23 minutes ago | parent
My wife bought this fuckass IoT air purifier that's constantly phoning home. I'm gonna figure out what it's telling the mothership.
blmarket 17 minutes ago | parent
_def 59 minutes ago | parent
farhanhubble 57 minutes ago | parent
denysvitali 56 minutes ago | parent
My trust in those vetting the CAs is completely broken now.
baobabKoodaa 39 minutes ago | parent
lokar 10 minutes ago | parent
That’s sort of the problem the CA forum (badly) addresses. The consumers of the CAs are not specifically exposed to failures of the CA they choose.
maratc 4 minutes ago | parent
One man's "little known company with no cybersecurity muscle" is another one's "sovereign certificate infrastructure."
altmanaltman 56 minutes ago | parent
zoobab 55 minutes ago | parent
Are they liable?
rahimnathwani 55 minutes ago | parent
This seems like a weird statement given that anyone can issue certificates out of the affected CAs.
trollbridge 47 minutes ago | parent
They just didn't mention that now anyone can be their own Certificate Authority.
sidewndr46 21 minutes ago | parent
bottlepalm 54 minutes ago | parent
skinfaxi 52 minutes ago | parent
bottlepalm 41 minutes ago | parent
knottn 36 minutes ago | parent
rvz 54 minutes ago | parent
You can't vibe code your way out of trust after causing a $100M dollar stock price crash over the silliness of how weak their root CA private key was.
tomrod 53 minutes ago | parent
dan_p 52 minutes ago | parent
b3lvedere 52 minutes ago | parent
So they didn't even use their own certificates? :)
weird-eye-issue 45 minutes ago | parent
trimbo 51 minutes ago | parent
Adding "out of the affected CA's" is top PR weasel wording that will slip by non-technical people who read this.
Congratulations to those who wrote or prompted this statement.
tamimio 51 minutes ago | parent
Toutouxc 50 minutes ago | parent
Maybe, like, setting up a factory that builds both LHD and RHD cars and building cars with two passenger seats in the front for two years straight without anyone noticing?
ProllyInfamous 28 minutes ago | parent
The best example I can think is (some) international borders: yeah, they're heavily regulated entities with lots of written protections (and thousands of miles of impenitrable barricades), but occassionally a hole opens up (whether physically or engineered).
Perhaps a section of border fence is occassionally destroyed (and people sneak in), but this won't happen if the border guards are approving [false] passports from a compromised government actor ("they have a valid passport, according to our inspection"), the border fence doesn't even matter!
Presume anybody can now go to that bad-passport-issuing government and request a passport to then enter any other country (i.e. the other country will see the passport as valid in the official global database): BAM, borders no longer mean anything; welcome to Privileged Accessia.
throwaway98797 23 minutes ago | parent
house collapses and people get injured.
concrete manufacture says we no longer build houses cause it’s too small of a business.
rustyminnow 20 minutes ago | parent
Normally, the king would declare and sign a proc stating that anything signed by his secretary's "unforgeable" signet was to be respected as well. The secretary could delegate authority to others in turn.
Well turns out that one of the signets in the chain of trust was just a picture of a "four" that anybody could have forged, but nobody noticed because in all of the ceremony and stacks of parchment with wax seals, nobody actually checked if the signet was secure.
crizzlenizzle 50 minutes ago | parent
tristor 45 minutes ago | parent
Really though, this is no different than people relying on accountancy firms in the rest of the world for "trust" and "security" as technology concepts. Accountancy firms have no business consulting on technology topics, and yet that is a major part of their business all over the world, because we've allowed "security" and "compliance" to become muddled concepts.
b3lvedere 40 minutes ago | parent
We have established he could at least count to 4 :)
edf13 41 minutes ago | parent
First one I clicked on?
rdtsc 49 minutes ago | parent
Scrutiny is inversely proportional to bit complexity of the private keys they used. Without a failure to apologize or expose how it happened: a human mistake, process mistake, etc. this looks pretty bad on them.
> eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as norma
Anyone relying on them with anything related to security or trust is playing Russian roulette at this point.
cromka 48 minutes ago | parent
I think based on this incident a discussion will open into how much we trust that system at all. With the level of espionage tactics some countries are keen to show the rest of the world, I personally assume absolutely anything can be sniffed.
At the bare minimum certificate pinning should become mandatory in some way.
cellover 47 minutes ago | parent
serf 45 minutes ago | parent
ban LLM discovery of horrendous security practices because as it turns out security-thru-obscurity is being practiced as 'good enough' across the world , or actually enforce realistic and livable security practice ?
given the insistence on picking overblown and totally partisan poor choices lately, I presume the media will sit on the side of 'we'll just ban LLMs from checking the rest of our security apparatus for single digit keys' and charge 'Wayne' with terrorism statutes.' -- but hopefully i'm just being a jaded pessimist.
navigate8310 42 minutes ago | parent
https://security.googleblog.com/2014/07/maintaining-digital-...
baobabKoodaa 37 minutes ago | parent
wiradikusuma 35 minutes ago | parent
CSMastermind 32 minutes ago | parent
From everything that came out they seem terribly unqualified.
Zobat 30 minutes ago | parent
Isn't the problem that anyone can/could issue end entity certificates with those certificates as "parent"?
ethin 28 minutes ago | parent
If this company was so incompetent that their private keys were a single byte, I seriously wonder what other areas they're incompetent in but that they've ventured into anyway. When you fail so spectacularly and so publicly at something like being a certificate authority, in the manner that eMudra did, it's rather hard not to wonder.
nolist_policy 28 minutes ago | parent
Popcorn recommended for the read!
sergiotapia 26 minutes ago | parent
moribvndvs 18 minutes ago | parent
Is 14 hours a diligent response time for something like this?
shadowgovt 16 minutes ago | parent
~ Not a quote from the press release
drdexebtjl 13 minutes ago | parent
BurnGpuBurn 12 minutes ago | parent
nayuki 11 minutes ago | parent
I was hoping the statement at the bottom would be written in past tense: eMudhra was a global provider of digital identity ... had temporarily enabled secure digital transformation ... Its product suite spanned CertiNext...
bob1029 7 minutes ago | parent
Did the HSM have a fault, or was the key generation script at fault?
I suspect the later given the choice to exit the business. If they had strong evidence that a FIPS-compliant HSM misbehaved, I suspect they'd be more willing to fight this.