187 points Tomte 1 hour ago 82 comments
cyanydeez 1 hour ago | parent
sssilver 1 hour ago | parent
If it is distinguishable, can’t the machines do the distinguishing?
pixl97 1 hour ago | parent
>The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it
I can put all kinds of words together that are legitimate uses of language, but that doesn't mean they mean anything or have any ground truth. Determining truth is massively more difficult than saying words.
mixmastamyk 30 minutes ago | parent
QuantumNomad_ 39 minutes ago | parent
No? Just like they are not able to reliably tell if a piece of text was LLM written or not aside from by having access to the watermarking that some providers and models intentionally embed in the text.
> If crap is indistinguishable from substance, is it truly crap?
The crap is very very distinguishable. But there is so much of it we have to wade through, and it’s only getting worse.
im3w1l 24 minutes ago | parent
croes 1 hour ago | parent
No jailbreak, no exploits
pixl97 1 hour ago | parent
One of the big problems with the HN rugged individualist types is they think they'll get to have awesome unlimited power at their broke ass individual scale and that somehow people with millions or billions of dollars aren't going to use said power fully to their advantage while crushing anyone that stands in their way.
More so they think that power seeking type people and organizations will not quickly adopt this technology and spend massive amounts of money to entrench their legal position while weakening everyone else's rights.
As much as technology may free us, it seems even more probable that it will put us in the perfect cage as you say, or just completely end us all. There is no universal law that says technology cannot power scale way beyond humans ability to remain chemically stable. If we fly too close to the sun our wings will melt off.
saidnooneever 1 hour ago | parent
that being said, that makes me pretty interested in this talk. outside of hacking sattelites and such things and/or infra i really dont see any opportunities to break free of the will of corporations as they can simply pay infra providers to do their bidding.
I dont think software can solve all problems because internet exists essentially as informaiton transported over infrastructure. the software surely helps enable that but its a helper not the actual network.
happy to learn otherwise from anyone here ofc :-)
ThrowawayTestr 1 hour ago | parent
pixl97 1 hour ago | parent
Censorship itself doesn't mean right or wrong, good or bad. It's very likely that you would censor your young kids from watching violent videos of real murders and would consider that a good thing, as an example.
Removing 'illegal' content is censorship in your example. If this is a good or bad thing depends on a great many considerations.
cowlevel 49 minutes ago | parent
pixl97 1 hour ago | parent
Even building your own internet, say over wireless is easily detected and jammed.
About the only thing that could save us (though likely cause so many new problems we won't feel saved) is some kind of more sci-fi technology involving the non-locality of the universe for devices to communicate (not even talking about FTL communication, just different topologies within universal limits).
cowlevel 50 minutes ago | parent
pixl97 47 minutes ago | parent
cowlevel 46 minutes ago | parent
adrianN 42 minutes ago | parent
saidnooneever 39 minutes ago | parent
pixl97 15 minutes ago | parent
The next time its foggy or raining a tuned photon sensor to the spectrum that these devices run at will light up like a Christmas tree. If you're really intent on catching said people, you'd have drones flying around sprinkling light chaff and detecting where it detects optical scattering.
m4rtink 38 minutes ago | parent
If you are at a stage of "we shoot people on suspicion of them being against The Cause" then indeed, this will not help.
Still, if you are not at that stage, doing something is better than nothing.
adrianN 33 minutes ago | parent
saidnooneever 28 minutes ago | parent
ciefa 19 minutes ago | parent
But as the world is now, it's not feasible in any sense yet.
The current internet is the best we have and it >can< work, we have to find solutions inside the current possibilities until tech is advanced, cheap and accessible enough for everyone interested to easily host their own infra.
But this is not easy, because what is the real goal... really?
It feels like most of the internet is about making money or involving money, even from the end users. Is there even something to fix when most people don't care enough to ditch knowingly harmful products like Facebook, TikTok, etc?
ciefa 23 minutes ago | parent
Don't get me wrong, an uncensorable and free internet for everyone is something I am very much for, but when we start to talk about nations limiting access while information has to flow, the question is not about mass-adoption anymore, but rather seeing the right tools reaching the right people.
A good example of this, imho, is the situation in Iran, when they cut off the internet. Some people were able to help themselves thanks to VPN-like apps and outside help, but that is not the majority of people.
saidnooneever 38 minutes ago | parent
saidnooneever 25 minutes ago | parent
but in the scifi mindset, what if you have an entangled ram bank with someone else. i write to mine and they can read it from theirs. that could create a sort of entangled ram bank mesh network network? (i know, maybe super stupid thought.)
pixl97 12 minutes ago | parent
NetOpWibby 6 minutes ago | parent
this got downvoted, ofc because i know nothing.
It’s the StackOverflow effect. If you aren’t an expert you’re punished for having the audacity to ask questions.TJSomething 12 minutes ago | parent
But I generally think that trying to solve social problems with technology is a futile endeavor. Someone will always have violence on their side. And violence is the ultimate weakness.
aktenlage 1 hour ago | parent
And there is a scale from "trivial to circumvent, if only (you know) you want to" to something like "need to be very tech-savy and use custom hardware"
cowlevel 50 minutes ago | parent
saidnooneever 40 minutes ago | parent
u could likely also readonable tell if someone would be enabling others via their access without even inspecting the actual traffic
entropyneur 31 minutes ago | parent
majicDave 6 minutes ago | parent
weinzierl 1 hour ago | parent
iugtmkbdfil834 23 minutes ago | parent
theK 8 minutes ago | parent
m4rtink 54 minutes ago | parent
easterncalculus 50 minutes ago | parent
m4rtink 46 minutes ago | parent
https://meshcore-analyzer.eu/#map
Quite active here in Czech Republic for example.
As for the IP protocol - maybe its too much overhead for this use case ?
MeshCore uses PKI and public key prefixes as addresses & for routing/repeating.
netbioserror 14 minutes ago | parent
haunter 1 hour ago | parent
Gareth321 42 minutes ago | parent
They study this. [Gen Z is 10x more accepting of violence to suppress speech they object to compared to Boomers.](https://expression.fire.org/p/gen-z-is-10-times-more-accepti...) It seems history really does repeat. People are going to need to experience some authoritarianism to remember why we care so much about free speech.
alex1138 22 minutes ago | parent
brador 1 hour ago | parent
Basically Reddit 2018.
ThrowawayTestr 1 hour ago | parent
pixl97 58 minutes ago | parent
Part of the problem here is there are people that think any kind of censorship or moderation is wrong. I will not make any universal statement about the correctness of their position, but I will make a personal statement about their position. "They are fucking crazy".
Now, every once is a while you need a bit of fucking crazy to shock you out of the position you're in and reassess what position you should hold.
cowlevel 47 minutes ago | parent
pixl97 19 minutes ago | parent
I mean, this may have worked a decade or two ago, but if you built modern software this way the same government is going to toss your ass in jail.
"Oh no, I built a murder machine that I can't stop, I guess you can't prosecute me for that, it's out of my control".
You can only get away with that now if you're a billion dollar AI company. Otherwise the judge is going to halt your efforts and prosecute you for contempt and stupidity.
Dwedit 1 hour ago | parent
eviks 1 hour ago | parent
And there are plenty of other differences besides "who", for example, "how".
pixl97 1 hour ago | parent
That's a big negatory.
>you publish on your site,
And your site gets a takedown for illegal content, or cops show up at your door and drag you out while beating you.
Life is heavily moderated in a million different ways. What we're talking about this point is just moderation or unjust moderation.
Gareth321 49 minutes ago | parent
cowlevel 48 minutes ago | parent
privacyishuman 23 minutes ago | parent
tgv 51 minutes ago | parent
I'll make my position clear: many parties try to influence people, and quite a few of them do so with grave consequences. The swing to extreme right politics cannot be seen separate from internet interference. In the words of the article: it's already not "technology serving people", but rather "controlling" them.
If extreme right (or left) parties come to power, your freedom of speech and privacy is over. So it's either moderate moderation, or authoritarian moderation. And if it's up to me, it's not your choice.
Gormo 45 minutes ago | parent
It sounds like that would precisely be a solution to the problems of using these platforms.
method_capital 24 minutes ago | parent
tryauuum 42 minutes ago | parent
since the government is too powerful and can enforce its ideas with legal violence
b33l 35 minutes ago | parent
entropyneur 24 minutes ago | parent
It's a universe-sized difference though. If a platform owner is doing it you can somply go to another platform. If a democratically elected goverment is doing it you can change the government though it's much harder. Or at least you can soothe yourself that it's being done for the benefit if the people as "the people" sees it. And if an authoritarian government is doing it, you are screwed.
lakeviewterrace 19 minutes ago | parent
"The family had a lot of buffers."
Because this was definitely happening during COVID.
grumbel 9 minutes ago | parent
rustyconover 1 hour ago | parent
If you ever get the chance to go, please go! Especially if you're an American I recommend it. It is so different than any other conference I've ever been to in the US.
It doesn't have a lot of sales pitches, the technical content is top notch, and overall it is really fun and interesting to see what everybody is talking about and working on.
weinzierl 1 hour ago | parent
pantalaimon 47 minutes ago | parent
m4rtink 35 minutes ago | parent
barrenko 31 minutes ago | parent
mixmastamyk 15 minutes ago | parent
talkingtab 41 minutes ago | parent
If the people who pay for the internet are not the users then who will the internet serve? Not the users. and since corporations are known soully (as in that is their soul) what would you expect? If people who want to profit by targeting people with lies pay for the internet, is that censorship? Well sort of - but maybe worse.
We need a community internet task force. Lets start one. Request for comments.
billfor 30 minutes ago | parent
alexchamberlain 11 minutes ago | parent
Was this a serious comment? It made me realise that prior to the Internet, information flow was controlled by journalists or through peer reviewed papers and academic forums. People without advanced education would, generally, be limited to people in their local area.
eddieroger 8 minutes ago | parent
iugtmkbdfil834 29 minutes ago | parent
edits abound
carlosjobim 8 minutes ago | parent
"We"? I think you can look to the history of the 20th century for your soul mates. The kind of thinking you express in your comment always ends with wholesale murder and mass torturing of innocent people to death.
themgt 29 minutes ago | parent
Why now. Censorship in Russia, Iran and China has grown much more sophisticated
The twenty-sixth edition of FOSDEM will take place on Saturday 30th and Sunday 31st January 2027 at the usual location, ULB Campus Solbosch in Brussels.
Doing this axis of evil routine without even a token mention of censorship by "western" regimes, including your own, suggests a level of willful blindness or self-delusion. The censored internet has always been Eurasian, etc.