267 points surprisetalk 1 hour ago 156 comments
andrewla 1 hour ago | parent
mentalgear 1 hour ago | parent
> On March 8, 1971, an activist group called the Citizens' Commission to Investigate the FBI burglarized a local office of the FBI in Media, Pennsylvania, and stole classified documents. Parts of them exposed a secret FBI operation called COINTELPRO. Those documents were later sent to newspapers and members of the United States Congress.
embedding-shape 1 hour ago | parent
Shame some societies digress into this state in the first place, even bigger shame when they keep sliding deeper and deeper into it.
MomsAVoxell 1 hour ago | parent
hypfer 1 hour ago | parent
At least now we have LLMs that can produce this kind of stuff at human-overwhelming rates, so that is progress.
williamdclt 1 hour ago | parent
the corners of the internet that you frequent have much more eloquent haters than the ones I'm used to
hypfer 1 hour ago | parent
There are quite a few covert psychopaths on here that happily twist knives and hurt people.
It's just hidden under layers and layers of indirection, jargon and plausible deniability. Not unlike your standard boardroom I guess.
my-next-account 1 hour ago | parent
Uploaded 16 years ago... I can't believe that a video I thought was so hilarious back then is dating me so hard.
kirth_gersen 1 hour ago | parent
hsuduebc2 1 hour ago | parent
hypfer 1 hour ago | parent
It is true that this is heavily moderated and that this is one of the more pleasant spaces, but it is also precisely the moderation style that is being weaponized.
As I said, the toxicity gets hidden in layers and layers of jargon, misdirection and plausible deniability. It gets a veneer of civilty applied, which, somewhat surprisingly, makes it hit even harder, because fighting back is a lot harder, as there is nothing immediately visible to fight back against. It just stings.
It's not just attacking but simultaneously gaslighting. Which has been what the whole internet has been doing since everything became twitter fwiw.
What I said is also not to be understood as "HN bad", because if I would feel that way, I would not be commenting here.
brookst 1 hour ago | parent
hypfer 1 hour ago | parent
Are we going to play "prove me right" here? :D
Come on, this is just a direct personal attack. Go play better. Hide it with a more elaborate construct.
Arnt 1 hour ago | parent
retromagik 1 hour ago | parent
hypfer 1 hour ago | parent
Instead of leaving it with the moderation to prove without a doubt that someone is trolling, one can default to assume trolling and demand prove that it is not the case.
As it is impossible to bring up proof for either of those things, the house wins and people make damn sure to quintuple-check if their messaging is decent.
I don't think that that is a good solution, but the status quo was horrible, so maybe the pendulum swinging in another direction for a while might help us discover saner solutions.
cowlevel 19 minutes ago | parent
cowlevel 57 minutes ago | parent
tacitusarc 1 hour ago | parent
hypfer 1 hour ago | parent
I'm not sure if can truly let this pass as a more sophisticated construct, but I do appreciate the opener that already invalidates dismissal.
That's a good tactic. Thank you for playing.
I feel great btw :) Thank you for your concern.
kmijyiyxfbklao 25 minutes ago | parent
regretsresin 1 hour ago | parent
However, it often uses queer lingo - words that folks might think aren't notable, but queer folks will instantly recognize as an attack.
Refusing to call a gay man's husband a husband, but subsisting in friend or partner. Calling someone biologically male. Etc.
These get deployed quite subtly here, and because none of the words are slurs, they don't get moderated. (Though HN also permits overt slur usage -- search for the r-slur and you'll find plenty of cases.)
cosmic_cheese 40 minutes ago | parent
amanaplanacanal 9 minutes ago | parent
I wonder how much of it is generational? I see something similar in the way second wave feminists rightly hated being called girls, whereas it's not as much of an issue for the younger generations because they didn't have those experiences.
semireg 1 hour ago | parent
Reminds me of the recent thread about LLMs controversial take on humanity: we are all terribly cynical, hallucinate importance, and we are all bad/good deep down inside.
mjburgess 1 hour ago | parent
The problem is that outside of "where's my keys? what are we having for lunch?", most language is a symptom of people's agendas. Its a rarefied elite environment that takes things literally, and acts in good faith.
I don't think this is psychopathic, as much as we're apes -- and speaking literally and in good faith about relatively abstract topics takes a considerable amount of training and is, in general, psychologically fragile (ie., its easy to be tilted).
MomsAVoxell 1 hour ago | parent
Compare the actual human rights records of the Western sphere (war crimes, crimes against humanity, violations of human rights at massive scale) with those of the nations we are being taught are inferior: same effect.
Or for any of us who were around for the Snowden/Assange chapter of HN, who supported the effort to expose the US' heinous crimes - there are still massive sections of western culture who are fundamentalist in their superiority. You can find them in the downvoted and dead-flagged comments section.
pixelready 8 minutes ago | parent
MomsAVoxell 6 minutes ago | parent
ballmerpoint 54 minutes ago | parent
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
This is not a criticism of their moderation style, this is simply reporting how they describe it.
sejje 21 minutes ago | parent
MomsAVoxell 1 hour ago | parent
ranger_danger 1 hour ago | parent
I'm convinced the only reason crimeflare continues to platform them is that it must be some kind of three letter honeypot.
cowlevel 56 minutes ago | parent
ranger_danger 40 minutes ago | parent
But, they now allow NSFW content in regular boards like technology, and for the first time in 20 years I actually saw someone post cheese pizza... plus I regularly see more and more leaked data posted there first, so I wouldn't call it less lawless at all.
thinkingemote 7 minutes ago | parent
They explicitly say they proactively work with LEOs to report any and all things illegal. I wouldn't be surprised if they had members of staff directly employed by some agencies, they wouldn't be opposed to it. They do not wait for a court order or subpoena, they will happily give them data and will not wait to be asked.
Their range of acceptable content is wider than other platforms which gives an impression of anarchy and freedom and anonymity, but actually those other nicer platforms may actually be more private and free from government interference and legal investigations!
deadbabe 42 minutes ago | parent
antonvs 1 hour ago | parent
ranger_danger 1 hour ago | parent
gadders 1 hour ago | parent
timmmmmmay 1 hour ago | parent
cowlevel 17 minutes ago | parent
somenameforme 1 hour ago | parent
I used the word 'degrade' earlier and I'm not sure fighting to the death over rascal is a higher state of enlightenment, but I do think words should have meaning, and now they mostly no longer do because everything is always hyperbolized to the most ridiculous degree.
So if the FBI was doing something akin in modern times they'd probably weaponize their knowledge by framing him as a viable rapist or other sort of sexual predator as opposed to a simple womanizer.
jacquesm 40 minutes ago | parent
antonvs 1 hour ago | parent
gadders 1 hour ago | parent
Apparently the audio tapes get released in 2027 so we may find out for sure then.
protonbob 1 hour ago | parent
mentalgear 1 hour ago | parent
The battle of the present (ICE abuse, Social media speech suppression, ..) to win the government back by the people and for the people can still be won - but it hinges all on this November.
VulgarExigency 1 hour ago | parent
What makes you think they've stopped?
mentalgear 1 hour ago | parent
See also how the robber barons of the 1930s (Rockefeller, JP Morgan, etc) already tried to overthrow the government to establish a fascist military dictatorship.
regretsresin 1 hour ago | parent
ToucanLoucan 49 minutes ago | parent
Non-violent protests have a place. On occasion though, you need to hit the system where it hurts in order for it to take you seriously.
mentalgear 46 minutes ago | parent
gadders 1 hour ago | parent
cowlevel 1 hour ago | parent
I remember reading the online news about those primaries as they happened. Bernie wins this state in a landslide. Bernie wins that state in a landslide. Suddenly he's not on the ballot in most of the remaining states. At the end he doesn't have enough votes, oh dear too bad so sad. Some sort of investigation happened, but concluded the DNC has the absolute right to run primaries any way it chooses to.
mentalgear 39 minutes ago | parent
So, the Clinton-controlled DNC from 2016 put Trump in the White House.
The positive message is that since then the Democrats have been infused by Sanders-like independent Democrats that want to do the right thing, but we must keep on pushing to rid and guard the DNC and party administration off the corrupt billionaire influences.
buellerbueller 36 minutes ago | parent
To me, it all seems to boil down to the notion that Bernie would credibly have "drained the swamp," which would have effectively tanked the careers of a lot of long-serving Democratic folks who were not aligned with his populist/progressive agenda. Simply by hiring people that would have aligned with his vision, this was such a threat to existing power, it had to be stopped. Yes, the Rs are worse (in my opinion), but this gives me plenty of distrust for the Ds. Institutions eventually become more about institutional survival than about their "core mission."
amenhotep 9 minutes ago | parent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_Democratic...
Why are you just completely making things up?
superdisk 1 hour ago | parent
Micrococonut 1 hour ago | parent
chasd00 1 hour ago | parent
My step dad use to quote bible verses to me trying to prove Obama was the literal antichrist. Before that it was the evil Bush and his oil cronies. Now it’s Trump, in two years it will be someone else. Same as it ever was.
cowlevel 1 hour ago | parent
By all rights there shouldn't be one already, but we're lucky the democracy abolitionists are fairly incompetent.
sejje 26 minutes ago | parent
Or, alternatively, did we cease to have a democracy?
jeremyjh 15 minutes ago | parent
Using the DOJ to interfere in state elections they have no jurisdiction in, and having masked men abduct people and ignore court orders regarding their disposition is just about as authoritarian as it gets.
Those are all new things that have substantially eroded - or removed all together the idea of democracy in less than two years.
cowlevel 9 minutes ago | parent
jackb4040 26 minutes ago | parent
Arodex 53 minutes ago | parent
What a level-headed, reasonable know-nothing you are, sitting above all this unreasonable jockeying.
I am not surprised though, you live in a culture where people can lecture others that the Bible told them Obama was Satan. You don't know what actual politics is anymore.
saila 35 minutes ago | parent
basilikum 50 minutes ago | parent
10111001 49 minutes ago | parent
There's a very easy method to tell if someone making that claim is a liar: ask "what major ideological compromise are they making to save democracy?" if the answer is "none" or close to it, they're full of shit.
'Cause if fascism is really our doorstep, you'd think they'd be gunning for the broadest, most indefatigable anti-fascist coalition possible; instead of the narrowest, most pure one they think they can get away with.
samrus 1 hour ago | parent
kspacewalk2 1 hour ago | parent
It's communism. Cold War. All there is to it. As with much other evil, this was done because the FBI feared that Big Bad Uncle Ivan will somehow gain influence over this leader and use it for leverage in the Cold War.
The same multitudes of extramarital affairs and other racy and embarrassing stuff that Dr King took part in, as a reverend, could be used by communists to blackmail him into working for them or making decisions that favour the Soviet Union. Is it far-fetched? Sure. Is it, in hindsight, paranoid and stupid? Yep. But can we say with certainty, without hindsight, that it was impossible, when you have an entire organization dedicated to rooting out hidden influence of the enemy in an existential covert global struggle?
And it wasn't all paranoia. The Soviet Union under Stalin was extremely good at infiltrating American academia, civil society and government. The Rosenbergs, Alger Hiss, Harry Dexter White, etc. The US government went from ignoring the problem and dealing with it so incompetently actual Soviet spies were in almost cabinet-level positions, to hysterically over-reacting and ruining the lives of people like Dr King "just in case".
cowlevel 58 minutes ago | parent
kspacewalk2 50 minutes ago | parent
jackb4040 21 minutes ago | parent
DFHippie 57 minutes ago | parent
(well, the Russian Federation, not the USSR)
regretsresin 1 hour ago | parent
Feed people. Engage in mutual aid. Build communities. Prepare candidates. Grow networks. Then vote. Voting is the last and easiest part.
accountrequired 53 minutes ago | parent
That is how Communists get their cultural revolution, you know.
cowlevel 23 minutes ago | parent
There seems to be great demand for a party that actually makes life better for people, so great that you can just name your party that, win an election and do anything you want to. For some reason there's very little supply of parties that actually make life better and don't just pretend they want to.
pessimizer 16 minutes ago | parent
Back then the establishment used the CIA/FBI to attack black civil rights movements. They also used it to attack things that were associated with the Soviet Union, including associating black civil rights with communism and socialism, like you're doing here.
Maybe this was not about everybody and not about you?
WillAdams 1 hour ago | parent
-------------------------------------------
House of Representatives, U.S.
Part of Congressional Record --- Free
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND NAACP IN COLLUSION TO FORCE SCHOOL INTEGRATION IN VIRGINIA
Address by Honorable Harry Flood Byrd before the Richmond Kiwanis Club, Richmond, Va
Extension of remarks of HON. WATKINS M. ABBITT of Virginia IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Wednesday, April 3, 1957
-------------------------------------------
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
Folks forget or underestimate how bitter the opposition to the Civil Rights Movement was.
I was taught to gut a squirrel by the son of a freed slave who lived behind the home in Virginia where my family retired to, he had worked alongside my grandfather as a sharecropper on my paternal grandmother's father's farm.
and it's worth noting that that county was one of the last to integrate in Virginia, facilitated by student teachers from a college in a nearby town whose post office is named for Watkins M. Abbitt.
MomsAVoxell 1 hour ago | parent
It's especially jarring to understand this in the context of the utterly racist "war on terror", which is just racism under cover. Racists can't use the n-word any more, so they invented "terrorist" to continue their bigotry and hatred of cultures they've deemed inferior.
Its one thing to consider the West to be morally and technologically superior with regards to civil rights - its another thing to remember that our governments were the principle violators of civil rights, just a few short decades ago. What the hate-leaders tell us to think about the mullahs and Iran, we could easily have thought about our own nations just a half a lifetime ago...
chuckadams 58 minutes ago | parent
Or where they'd still like to take us. The only problem they have with Ayatollahs is that they call God by the wrong name.
zulux 55 minutes ago | parent
MomsAVoxell 50 minutes ago | parent
Do you think that subsistence-working at Only Fans, or the local strip club is a better alternative?
For every 'women in sacks' argument that can be made, there is a street downtown where women put themselves in immense danger just to be able to feed their kids, pay their medical bill debts, get themselves some kind of safety net...
Same shit, different social flavor.
Arodex 39 minutes ago | parent
https://letterboxd.com/film/americas-war-against-women/watch...
GolfPopper 45 minutes ago | parent
MomsAVoxell 53 minutes ago | parent
I couldn't live in a state which allows its police forces to murder with impunity, for example.
The point is that the moral authority we claim over other states is a fallacy. Until we are actually protecting civil rights to the extent we expect of other nations, we are hypocritically justifying our own states heinous track record.
Alas, this seems to be understood pretty well by the ruling classes, who have subjugated human rights to mean "this gives us a right to justify the destruction of sovereign states and their peoples' we have deemed inferior".
dragonwriter 45 minutes ago | parent
Not under that much cover, just the more overt part of it directed at a different demographic than the primary foci of earlier rounds of US racism (though it provided a lot of excuse for actions directed more in line with classic US racism, and set the stage for the renaissance of more classicly directed, out-and-proud racism that has characterized the Trump era.)
MomsAVoxell 28 minutes ago | parent
The "terrorism" tranche of this hate culture is particularly jarring, since the ones claiming moral altitude over 'terrorists' are delivering far, far more terrorism than their supposed enemies. It's just been homogenized.
fsckboy 7 minutes ago | parent
Booker T Washington, a notable and well-known African American scholar and public intellectual who worked tirelessly to improve the lives of Black Americans and is considered an authority on these topics, said in an 1895 speech in Alanta that despite the civil rights challenges faced by African Americans, that America was the best place in the world for Africans to live and prosper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Exposition_Speech It is silly to present yourself as more knowledgeable or morally pure about civil rights than Booker T Washington.
so, no, you are wrong, without defending any of the injustices that occurred, America has literally not been the principle violator of civil rights at any point in its history. (The wars against Native Americans were wars just like the wars that the Native Americans inflicted on each other and which were and are still taking place in many other parts of the world, no other word to use than barbaric and indefensible. Yet, worst in the world? worst in that period? No.)
It's especially jarring to understand this in the context of the utterly racist "war on terror"...which is just racism under cover. Racists can't use the n-word any more, so they invented "terrorist" to continue their bigotry and hatred of cultures they've deemed inferior.
you put "war on terror" in quotes, rightfully, because you recognize that it's just a catchphrase like the wars "on cancer", "on smoking", "on diabetes", etc. And you are using the term "racist" the same way. Most terrorism in the last 60ish years is associated with some Arabs and also some Islamists, and with or in cooperation with, anarcho-Marxists like Bader-Meinhof, Brigate Rosse/Red Brigades, antifa, etc. These people do not form a race or inasmuch as they do it's within the white "races", i.e. not much African and not much Asian. But like the "war on terror", you want to invest your misguided view of this struggle as beyond reproach so you say people who engage in it are Racists™. The PLO was not Islamic, the PLO was nationalistic. Islam isn't a race. Capitalism is not Christianity. Humans get into conflict about ideas more than anything else. Debate the ideas and don't contribute to strife by lashing out emotionally.
>"It's one thing to consider the West to be morally and technologically superior with regards to civil rights"
yes, go on...
As your profile page says, "listen here, person, respect is mutual": none of us is perfect, but those are words to at least try to live by.
MomsAVoxell 4 minutes ago | parent
That is blatantly false and you are indeed manifesting the very example of the ideology I find utterly corrupt.
37 million refugees from America's heinously vile wars, this century alone, beg to differ.
And then, there's Gaza.
I have no respect for a nation that justifies the constant, daily murder of children. A nation that has dropped one bomb, on average, every 15 minutes for the past 25 years - on mostly innocent people - deserves a lot less respect than you seem to imply.
Your in-group is not my out-group, but it's not my in-group, either. I prefer to participate in cultures which protect human rights - at the level of children - above all else. America is not one of them. If your state has to murder children - or supports states murdering children - in "self defense", then it is a failed state.
Period.
barake 47 minutes ago | parent
1: https://www.wlky.com/article/forced-busing-anniversary-50-lo...
2: https://www.louisville.com/redlining-louisville-dividing-lin...
amanaplanacanal 27 minutes ago | parent
igleria 44 minutes ago | parent
tsunamifury 27 minutes ago | parent
We, as Americans have had our “mask off” moment now and are openly declaring ourselves the preeminent empire on the planet. It’s simply that we are withdrawing from our globalist support structures due to a wide variety of forecast reasons along side that, which is confusing to many.
It was our liberal values and performance internally by the Democrats that gave our people as sort of comforting story before. We do it for the good of others we give we topple dictators etc.
I am a deeply “real politik” person and I don’t think you average right leaning American ever thought otherwise. It was somewhat ironically the hope yet no-change left Americans (who i have counted myself among) who tried to give it the thinnest veneer of responsibility.
The greatest thing we provided the world was order, for a time. That seems true of almost any mature empire.
tehjoker 20 minutes ago | parent
jfengel 44 minutes ago | parent
White folks, that is. Black Americans are acutely aware of it.
Civil Rights legislation is being rolled back, to enthusiastic cheers. A lot of people never got over the Civil War, and are still trying to prove that somehow they were right all along.
WillAdams 41 minutes ago | parent
IAmBroom 16 minutes ago | parent
Meaningful systemic racism is far more problematic than your experience with a few rural black males.
ibn_khaldun 3 minutes ago | parent
dcss_gardener 21 minutes ago | parent
You had a generation of people making legal, hiring, sentencing, admission, loan decisions that smoothly transitioned from enforcing the law to being very concerned about standards or however they personally decided was the best way to publicly approach it within their little political sphere.
Then they selected and trained the next generation of administrators, bureaucrats, and enforcers about the "right" way to do this work. A lot of things have changed but at no point did this process end in any meaningful way.
forinti 41 minutes ago | parent
When you are used to privilege, equality looks like oppression.
lifestyleguru 1 hour ago | parent
cowlevel 54 minutes ago | parent
nunez 52 minutes ago | parent
so weird that it somehow got through the spam filter
bjacobel 27 minutes ago | parent
wildzzz 24 minutes ago | parent
whycome 1 hour ago | parent
freediver 34 minutes ago | parent
cowlevel 14 minutes ago | parent
But sites won't let me do that, they want me to make an account first and they want to verify my email address and phone number which means leaving my browser and restarting the process each time I do because the browser got unloaded and the website doesn't save state. Almost all of the friction here is the fault of the website, not the payment process.
Usually I just can't make an account on a mobile device because of the browser unloading, so if it's important I do it later with my PC and if it's not important I give up entirely.
krunck 1 hour ago | parent
mcv 57 minutes ago | parent
Magicrafter13 9 minutes ago | parent
Good thing the FBI doesn't do this anymore hahaha yes we are certainly safe and they are definitely not infiltrating groups and people's minds in order to discredit and trick them into failure.....
avazhi 7 minutes ago | parent
InsidiousWombat 5 minutes ago | parent
t1234s 3 minutes ago | parent
Beestie 3 minutes ago | parent