Yet another Hacker News

Fujifilm to boost tape production 5x as AI fuels archiving demand

125 points bookofjoe 1 day ago 49 comments

drdexebtjl 1 hour ago | parent

Surely it’s AI, and not archive-now-decrypt-later attacks, right?

cromka 1 hour ago | parent

"Fujifilm highlights the ability to air-gap tape cartridges as a last defense for user data: “Given the sophistication of cyberattacks, magnetic tape is attracting increasing attention as a means of protecting data from threats such as ransomware.”"

I mean, it's plausible, yet I find it hard to believe this solely drives demand 5 times. Because if it does then what, companies were not using cold storage backups before?

wslh 1 hour ago | parent

> Because if it does then what, companies were not using cold storage backups before?

What I observed in the rising cybersecurity attacks happening around me:

(i) There are organizations thinking that they have [complete] backups and being aware they don't once the cyberattack if effective.

(ii) Even in organizations with complete backups they don't have a [good] process to recover them, and the operations suffered a lot.

Corollary: backups are, in general, not battle tested.

rickdeckard 48 minutes ago | parent

yep, in my observation the ratio of "having backup processes" to "having periodic disaster recovery drill" is somewhere in the area of 20:1.

Even within the same company. Every division has backup processes, only few actually try to recover the data once in a while...

bluGill 38 minutes ago | parent

At least they have a process. That gives you a chance. Often the process itself is good - you didn't test it but the vendors all did and so the data is there - it might be hard to restore, but it can be done by experts after the fact. The drill means you can recover in a "short time" instead of a "long time" (short time can range from minutes to days, while long time days to years)

rickdeckard 27 minutes ago | parent

yes and no.

I've ran drills with companies which concluded that the incremental backups couldn't be restored due to some data corruption issue (no readback test was ever done).

Luckily the company also did a full backup every 6 months, so a disaster would have only thrown them back 6 months at max! /s ;)

But yes, some issues were even more simple: I had a case where performing a restore required twice the storage size of the uncompressed data, and the company actually didn't have the infrastructure ready to do that in case of a disaster...

bluGill 21 minutes ago | parent

I'll bet that if it really was important you could pay someone (LLMs make this easier) to dig through the data byte by byte and get everything back despite the corruption. It would take years, and be very expensive, but typically there is enough redundancy to figure it out. Often you only really need a small subset of the data and can live without the rest.

Don't get me wrong, drills are important! You should do them. However backups without a restore drill better than no backups at all. Even if you only get the last full backup, the data from the last 6 months will be the easiest to recreate from scratch if you must.

otabdeveloper4 56 minutes ago | parent

Datacenters being blown up by drones and rockets in kinetic war is probably what drives demand, not "AI".

lp92 52 minutes ago | parent

That's a small number of data center impacted and won't explain the 5x increase.

bluGill 40 minutes ago | parent

If it happened to "them" it could happen to us. You never know when the next war will be.

Maxion 33 minutes ago | parent

I suspect very very few companies have cold storage backups.

throw0101c 32 minutes ago | parent

> I mean, it's plausible, yet I find it hard to believe this solely drives demand 5 times. Because if it does then what, companies were not using cold storage backups before?

As someone in HPC: people never delete stuff. It can stick around forever, and so if more bits are generated, there are more bits that people don't want to delete "just in case". Depending on the organization, quota enforcement can be tighter or looser.

HSM is fairly popular in the HPC space for this reason:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchical_storage_managemen...

Your newest/hottest bits are on NVMe, anything older than (e.g.) 3 months gets move to SSD, anything older than that to spinning rust HDDs, and then to tape.

There are several file systems where this happens in the background: the file still shows up at /path/for/stuff/foo.txt but the contents are shuffled about behind the scenes.

doughnutstracks 1 hour ago | parent

I came across this website that provides LTO tape pricing references (I have no affiliation with the site).

LTO-10 30TB: $259–$300 per cartridge (~$8.63–$10/TB) LTO-10 40TB: $491–$555 per cartridge (~$12.28–$13.88/TB) LTO-9 18TB: $92–$129 per cartridge (~$5.14–$7.17/TB)

https://tapebackup.org/lto-tape-price-trend/lto10-price

One thing worth noting is that the tape cartridges themselves aren't necessarily the biggest expense. Standalone LTO-10 drives are currently listed at around $25,000.

wslh 1 hour ago | parent

Yes, drives are very expensive and that's why there is a business for renting them. Even Amazon Snowball offered that [1]. There are other rental services such as [2] but many of them are not LTO-10 yet (don't know if it really matters right now).

[1] https://docs.aws.amazon.com/snowball/latest/developer-guide/...

[2] https://mediastoragegroup.com/

RobotToaster 45 minutes ago | parent

What makes the drives so expensive? Is it just the fact that they're still pretty niche?

rickdeckard 39 minutes ago | parent

It's niche, yes. But also an incredibly high-precision mechanical device, designed for constant operation.

But the fact that -ALL- LTO drive-mechanisms are build by IBM maybe also doesn't help the pricing...

throw0101c 41 minutes ago | parent

> One thing worth noting is that the tape cartridges themselves aren't necessarily the biggest expense. Standalone LTO-10 drives are currently listed at around $25,000.

The drives are a fairly fixed CapEx: once they're purchased they don't cost must/anything to run. You may replace them every few years with newer tech for higher capacities of course.

Libraries/robotics last even longer, and can stick around for a decade or more once purchased.

shiftpgdn 16 minutes ago | parent

You don't need a $25,000 LTO-10 drive, $100,000 library, and $300 tapes. The drives are frequently backwards compatible multiple generations, so your archives are safe. You can get LTO-7, LTO-8, and LTO-9 libraries for cheap (right now there are lots of LTO-7 standalone drives for under $1000 on ebay), as they've aged out of enterprise leases.

dzink 1 hour ago | parent

BluRay M-Disks are cheaper and more resistant to humidity / heat.

orlp 1 hour ago | parent

From prices I can see it's 10-20x more expensive than tape archives.

bluGill 41 minutes ago | parent

Only if you are filling the tapes. For the average person bluray is much cheaper since they don't have much data.

folmar 30 minutes ago | parent

if you have less data you buy older generation tapes, LTO-5 is 1.5 TB uncompressed and should be in price sweet spot right now.

bluGill 27 minutes ago | parent

Maybe. For the average person here though they will already have and want a blu-ray drive for "reasons", and so using it for backup is very cheap. LTO-5 might be cheap, but they still need to buy a drive that they won't use for anything else.

If you are a business of course tape is cheap. Even then, a few usb harddrives are cheap as well and much faster.

theandrewbailey 1 hour ago | parent

Bluray is cheaper per unit, but not per terabyte.

tokai 52 minutes ago | parent

But will there be any bluray drives available in the future?

netrap 21 minutes ago | parent

There is also no investment in recordable blu-ray anymore from Sony. Only CMC and Ritek probably actually make recordable blu-ray now.

adrian_b 43 minutes ago | parent

I wish that were true.

Alas, M-Disks are hugely more expensive than magnetic tapes, even when not taking into account their much greater volume.

The biggest M-Disks are of 100 GB and the cheapest that I see on Amazon (in 25-piece sets) are at about $9 without taxes and shipping. At that price, I can buy not 0.1 TB, but 2 TB of magnetic tapes, which also have a much lower volume, at 18 TB per tape for the older and cheaper LTO-9 cartridges. I can easily carry with me a suitcase with 360 TB of data (20 LTO-9 cartridges), or store it in a safe place. Carrying 3600 M-Disks or storing them in my home would be impossible.

M-Disks may be used only to archive some small amounts of more valuable data, e.g. documents or programs that you have written yourself, a few scanned legal documents, a few more important books, a small amount of music that you prefer, a few family photographs.

For bulk data, if you cannot afford the cost of tape drives, the only alternative is HDDs, but with HDDs you must take care to always use both duplicate HDDs and archive files with redundancy, which allow the regeneration of their content when any not too large part of the file becomes corrupted. You must also take care to migrate the data periodically to new HDDs, after a few years.

Due to their small size I have not tried to use M-Disks until now, so I do not know if my older Blu-ray recorder can write them. There is also the problem that the availability in the future of Blu-ray recorders and readers is uncertain.

underlipton 14 minutes ago | parent

Drive cost. Ease of restoration. Resistance to an EMP attack.

jefftk 36 minutes ago | parent

M-Disks are not cheaper than tape for bulk data storage. Once you're doing enough of this that you're not limited by the cost of the drives, it's about a factor of 25: $150/TB for M-disk vs $6/TB for tape.

pjc50 54 minutes ago | parent

The cost of backing up slop gets added to the cost of generating it in the first place, I suppose.

classified 54 minutes ago | parent

I would have thought this is for archiving pre-slop-era data, but archiving slop might be archaeologically interesting too.

metadata 47 minutes ago | parent

All the data AI vendors are slurping to surveil us needs to be stored for later, when they get enough compute to start taking advantage of it.

As time goes by, people are sending more and more. It started with just prompts, then the local source code, then calendar, emails, local files...

rickdeckard 46 minutes ago | parent

I don't understand, why don't these companies backup their data into the cloud? /s

That's what they keep telling everyone else for years now...

dylan604 39 minutes ago | parent

and what do the cloud providers use to back it up? it there a cloud for the cloud? we're close to an Inception like multiple levels of cloud

rickdeckard 15 minutes ago | parent

Space! (I presume)

That's where all my random pictures, duplicate bank statements and savegames will go. For the benefit of mankind! (and a small monthly fee)

dylan604 41 minutes ago | parent

Anyone that's never had the (dis)pleasure of working with tapes, there's some gotchas to know about before archiving and forgetting about it.

When you create an archive, do not skip the step of reading it back. I'm not talking about just having the system confirm it is readable. I mean actually restoring the data from the tape. I've had tapes fail to retrieve data off of the tape even though the writing app confirmed it was readable.

Drives can have issues reading data written by another drive. Drives can have issues reading a tape it wrote itself.

Why write one when you can write two at twice the time/cost? In all of my experience with tape, I've never written just one tape. In the early days of DVDs, the images were written to LTO to send to have the discs pressed. Two were always sent on the chance one wasn't readable and schedules were so tight that the loss of a couple of days to send a new tape would wreck delivery dates. Another facility wrote three tapes: one kept on site, one sent to IronMountain, one sent to the client directly. Plenty of occasions saw the local copy unreadable and the IronMountain copy was retrieved. These were managed by large robotic tape libraries so each tape was written in a different drive at the same time so it was 3x cost while only 1x time.

Use the drive cleaning cassette as recommended. Your dirty heads can cause the data to not be written/read correctly depending on which head is dirty. If you're having issues reading, clean the heads before giving up on the tape. If you're having issues reading a tape just written, do not think someone else will be able to read it.

Ensure whoever might be using a tape you've written understands what was used to write the tape. Not all archivers are compatible. If you use the tar command to write to tape, people using a GUI app won't be able to read it.

btown 26 minutes ago | parent

From your experience are any of the big cloud providers more effective/careful at this than others?

shiftpgdn 23 minutes ago | parent

[flagged]

dang 6 minutes ago | parent

Can you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? Your account has been doing a lot of this and we've asked you this before.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

shiftpgdn 10 minutes ago | parent

Symantec Backup Exec was genuinely one of the worst pieces of software I have ever had to use. Later in life I got to use the IBM Storage Archive setup with much larger tape libraries which still sucked but my god the level of competency difference between the two applications was insane.

sneak 41 minutes ago | parent

Still an open question: How does S3 Glacier Deep Archive do it? Tape has been theorized but I’ve also heard arguments for very slow flash…

rickdeckard 33 minutes ago | parent

it's fascinating how the general direction became to never delete data. All the attempts of taking a photo, all the downloads of bank-statements, all the useless emails.

At some point in the future the amount of data being stored indiscriminately must consume such a huge amount of resources and cost, that it becomes a hidden fixed cost within a country's GDP, without any tangible benefit...

anonu 23 minutes ago | parent

don't we inflate this problem away? storage should get more abundant and cheaper and the old media looks comparitevly small compared to higher fidelity and higher definition formats that come later. so it doesn't matter if your gmail stores 20 years of useless emails.

rickdeckard 5 minutes ago | parent

> don't we inflate this problem away?

That continues to be the assumption, yes. Disregarding all the waste being created in the process.

What's fascinating is the fact that the production of TAPE sees a 5x boost. That's the format with the slowest retrieval rate, only making sense for long-term storage, usually 1+ years.

So is there really 5x more valuable data now, or is it just not economic to actually judge the need for preserving data...?

rickdeckard 22 minutes ago | parent

There might be a huge potential for an AI which scrapes your (and my!) data and concludes what I can safely delete, saving the world tons of resources.

The millions of pictures I never got to sort, the multiple versions of a file that I wrote 2 years ago, etc.

But in the view of an AI-company that's probably a paradox. All this data could be used to learn more about me, it should never be deleted! Instead, some hole should be carved out of a mountain to store it, billing me every month!

Cthulhu_ 9 minutes ago | parent

Why use AI when duplicate finders have been a thing for decades?

For the pictures, I set up a batch script the one time that used exiftool to read all of my photo's exif data (for creation date), rename the file to that date / time, and put it in a year/month folder structure. Once that's normalized it was pretty straightforward to identify and delete duplicates (assuming the exif data on duplicates has the same date/time in it).

yellow_lead 4 minutes ago | parent

> There might be a huge potential for an AI which scrapes your (and my!) data and concludes what I can safely delete, saving the world tons of resources.

Thinking...

User has 15 pictures of his dead mother, deleting 14.

Saved 20 MB! :)

rowanG077 15 minutes ago | parent

I have worked in tape for years. We can really tell there is a big boom after years of the market not doing super well.