143 points d3nit 1 hour ago 131 comments
sjs382 1 hour ago | parent
EVENT TIME: 14/0116 - 14/0130 DESTINATION AIRPORT:ALL FACILITIES INCLUDED: ALL EXPECT UPDATE:0400Z REASON: REMARKS: THE FAA COMMAND CENTER NATIONWIDE GROUND STOP HAS BEEN CANCELLED. EFFECTIVE TIME:
140119-140200 SIGNATURE:
26/11/14 01:19
isatty 58 minutes ago | parent
CodeCompost 57 minutes ago | parent
pvab3 57 minutes ago | parent
pryanbengt 56 minutes ago | parent
Speculation on my part, they just rolled out their SMART air traffic routing system. https://www.flyingmag.com/faa-smart-ai-now-active-at-22-artc...
Bet the increased strain on data polling from this system is the culprit for increased traffic.
cozzyd 52 minutes ago | parent
TZubiri 6 minutes ago | parent
It is possible that this overwhelming was caused by a software or configuration error, no doubt.
I think that if that's the case, rather than failing upwards and going for a full simultaneous upgrade with a 50B congress bill, the brakes should be stepped on a little bit, continue the partial migration as long as there are no issues. Or at least wait until the start of a 4year administration to go for a rehaul, so that you can stay around if things go fubar.
Willish42 38 minutes ago | parent
pryanbengt 31 minutes ago | parent
Transportation secretary Duffy says that the smart system is unrelated. That the smart system is a dashboard for displaying all the data from across the air traffic system. My questions is obviously where is the smart system getting its data from...
I suspect FAA pushed for the new AI system, didnt take into account the increased traffic demand to feed the system. Aging infra isnt sufficient to handle the increased demand. Now Duffy is trying to deflect blame unto someone else.
larntz 7 minutes ago | parent
Should be an easy answer. We saw increased traffic from X and we've implemented Y to ensure it doesn't happen again.
Instead it was vague hand waving around old hardware and funding.
Even if they don't have all the details organized, what was done to fix the problem? How was the 12b spent thus far and what where does the additional 50b number come from?
Or maybe don't start with demanding money. What happened? How was it fixed? What is being done to ensure it doesn't happen again? Then mention this shit needs fixed and we'll be working with Congress for additional funding.
It was interesting that Mullen mention new technology contributing at one point. Sounds like someone made a mistake somewhere and this press conference was purposefully vague or they really don't understand what happened yet (doubtful).
Plenty of critical systems operate reliably on old tech as long as you work within the limitations.
This press conference had maybe 30s of actual info and the rest was this antiquated system is fucked even though it's been working for years and the only way to move forward is $50b. :shrug:
not_kurt_godel 55 minutes ago | parent
hysan 53 minutes ago | parent
moogly 52 minutes ago | parent
reactordev 46 minutes ago | parent
moogly 33 minutes ago | parent
budman1 25 minutes ago | parent
g-b-r 42 minutes ago | parent
aorloff 51 minutes ago | parent
ChaseRensberger 49 minutes ago | parent
donalhunt 47 minutes ago | parent
hysan 46 minutes ago | parent
ChaseRensberger 42 minutes ago | parent
> old system give us money
> probably not a cyberattack btw
> not SMART related
> we've opened the airspace but this is gonna be slow
just ended actually as i was typing this, that's pretty much it
sjs382 39 minutes ago | parent
They didn't.
Avicebron 46 minutes ago | parent
hysan 42 minutes ago | parent
Avicebron 38 minutes ago | parent
I expect it to be a combination of extremely poorly funded and sidelined IT infrastructure trying to use a bloated AI system from a hype company. Which results in everything breaking and poor schmucks already at the end of their rope working to fix something they barely understand.
arcfour 32 minutes ago | parent
Avicebron 27 minutes ago | parent
gamblor956 8 minutes ago | parent
It doesn't take a genius to see the problem is the new AI system. Whether or it's the "AI" part of the system isn't really relevant system this new system was vibe-coded by AI and built around the "AI" features.
qntmfred 7 minutes ago | parent
budman1 27 minutes ago | parent
lovecg 22 minutes ago | parent
budman1 17 minutes ago | parent
FAA has been doing this for decades. A single electronics box, or even a couple should not drop the system. Maybe for the time it takes to remove and replace.
After hearing the press conference "some new stuff was plugged in and the legacy system could not handle it" or alternatively 'a mistake was made that just so happens involved non today equipment, but we want more money'
db48x 24 minutes ago | parent
Do you really need the government to solve that problem for you? Just book another flight.
simonw 22 minutes ago | parent
linkjuice4all 40 minutes ago | parent
It's possible this is the standard "privatize a government function and skim the profits" move but some of this stinks of union busting and trying to reduce the amount of influence air traffic controllers have whenever the organized criminals that run our government want to have a shutdown but keep their private jets flying.
Suffice it to say - there's no reason to trust any of these people when it comes to taking care of critical government functions.
wpietri 18 minutes ago | parent
snailmailman 41 minutes ago | parent
Not sure if this was the the exact quote, but I see AP wrote, "introduction of some new technology into an old air traffic control system overwhelmed it." Despite that, the whole conference, on loop, they were insisting that the problem is entirely the old hardware and this is why they need billions to overhaul it and rebuild from scratch.
g-b-r 29 minutes ago | parent
nerevarthelame 19 minutes ago | parent
But my completely unfounded and more conspiratorial theory, based on zero knowledge of air traffic control systems, is that to better accommodate SMART, L3Harris was strong-armed into to rolling out a hastily written patch on a Friday, which accidentally took down the system.
TZubiri 13 minutes ago | parent
The secretary also mentioned that the new system should be brought altogether, and not piece by piece. Which would lend credence to an incompatibility between both systems.
voncheese 31 minutes ago | parent
readthenotes1 28 minutes ago | parent
What am I missing?
voncheese 24 minutes ago | parent
As a postmortem, once the dust has settled, is the time to ask for more funding/support
lukan 22 minutes ago | parent
jhallenworld 25 minutes ago | parent
I don't doubt that the system needs upgrades, but these people should not be involved.
hn_throwaway_99 17 minutes ago | parent
eddythompson80 7 minutes ago | parent
BigBlackGorilla 20 minutes ago | parent
jquery 17 minutes ago | parent
superkuh 51 minutes ago | parent
zzzeek 48 minutes ago | parent
loceng 42 minutes ago | parent
starkparker 42 minutes ago | parent
https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2026-09/M...
SonOfKyuss 38 minutes ago | parent
zzzeek 15 minutes ago | parent
qlte 23 minutes ago | parent
The Senate will be in session for four more days next week before the Thanksgiving holiday, and then back for the first three weeks of December before the 119th Congress adjourns for good on Dec 18th. So basically, after two full years with control of both branches of Congress and the WH, this bill was introduced on the very last week of the regular Congress calendar. After which the lame duck Congress would only meet for about four weeks until adjournment.
Not really stalled, more like procrastinated until days before the election (when everyone is scared to vote on anything), hoping that the lame duck Congress (notoriously unproductive period generally) would force it through in a rush?
Doesn't seem like a great strategy if they actually wanted it to pass (especially since a budget CR is needed before Dec 11 which will dominate members' attention in the remaining time).
firesteelrain 37 minutes ago | parent
donalhunt 48 minutes ago | parent
lostlogin 20 minutes ago | parent
sjs382 45 minutes ago | parent
Unclear what happened but they have old equipment. Only Duffy can fix it, he needs $50B from Congress to do it and they can't fix it overnight. They can't guarantee it won't happen again.
budman1 25 minutes ago | parent
Animats 38 minutes ago | parent
LAX hasn't restarted yet. Departures are either "Cancelled" or "Delayed".
All information about this is from PR teams. Nothing from reporters who cover airports. Nobody from airport management, airline operations, FAA operations people, or somebody who just got off shift at a control tower. People who might actually know something. There was a briefing at the White House, and it was all cabinet secretaries. "Instead of reassuring an anxious public, and providing concrete information, this briefing appears to be intended for President Trump’s approval" wrote a New York Times reporter.
FAA policy prohibits anybody but PR people talking to the public. The details of that policy are not public.[2]
[1] https://www.ops.group/blog
[2] https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/inde...
efficax 26 minutes ago | parent
nycdatasci 24 minutes ago | parent
debrisontrack 52 minutes ago | parent
souvlakee 51 minutes ago | parent
MadVikingGod 47 minutes ago | parent
speransky 39 minutes ago | parent
nan60 39 minutes ago | parent
So it was the AI?
mjmsmith 27 minutes ago | parent
__MatrixMan__ 12 minutes ago | parent
eichin 5 minutes ago | parent
The_Blade 22 minutes ago | parent
teaearlgraycold 37 minutes ago | parent
__MatrixMan__ 15 minutes ago | parent
I wish more was being done on partition tolerance. Consistency is over rated.
jaza 13 minutes ago | parent
g-b-r 32 minutes ago | parent
"What it appears to be right now is as secretary Duffy and FAA was going in and putting patches into the system, they were putting new equipment, new technology, and, that new equipment new technology it was overwhelming the older system".
So, it was a careless update, probably the one deploying their new 875 millions AI tool.
And no journalist at the conference picked that up.
elicash 30 minutes ago | parent
Sec Mullin: "What it appears to be right now is, as Sec Duffy and FAA was going in and putting patches into the system, they were putting new equipment and new technology. And that new equipment and new technology, it was overwhelming the older system. Which is why Sec Duffy made it very clear, the patchwork doesn't work. We need one complete system."
kuviaq 23 minutes ago | parent
jordanb 17 minutes ago | parent
ajkjk 9 minutes ago | parent
OhMeadhbh 8 minutes ago | parent
Sure, but the purpose of the tech policy office is to
argue why old systems (which have fixed maintenance costs)
should be replaced with new systems which goose the
economy when the federal government pays 10x for what they
should be paying.xmprt 7 minutes ago | parent
If and when things break you'll end up with an even bigger disaster if you don't have people prepared to maintain the old systems. A well managed decommissioning and upgrade is much more preferable.
dnqthao 20 minutes ago | parent
ChrisMarshallNY 12 minutes ago | parent
https://static.wingify.com/gcp/uploads/abtasty/test-in-produ...
OhMeadhbh 11 minutes ago | parent
Because if it doesn't work, they call it out for bids
again, select their cronies and get kickbacks. If it does
work, then they've missed an opportunity for grift.dfxm12 8 minutes ago | parent
hn_throwaway_99 19 minutes ago | parent
I watched Sec Duffy's presentation, and it was appalling, but par for the course with this administration: in the middle of a major nationwide outage, he tried to blame someone else.
Even if Duffy got everything he wished for, how do you think they would upgrade a system as old and complicated as ATC. They would have to do it piecemeal anyway. This was a classic upgrade that broke shit. The problem was with the new upgrade, not the old shit that worked.
elicash 10 minutes ago | parent
I agree with your view.
AndrewKemendo 19 minutes ago | parent
Over a decade ago I was an intelligence officer and the alarm bells were going off and it was exceptionally clear to the National security community that US infrastructure is barely holding on.
Clapper in 2013:
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/21491-document-90
Dan Coates in 2018:
https://www.euronews.com/2018/07/13/us-intel-chief-warns-of-...
Tip of the iceberg folks. Hold on to your butts…
drehm 17 minutes ago | parent
I think the problem with a lot of the push to "modernize" is we forget the legacy system has been real-world tested for 40 years now. It's the new stuff that needs to prove itself in terms of stability.
LastTrain 8 minutes ago | parent
saladdays 28 minutes ago | parent
souvlakee 27 minutes ago | parent
bvan 27 minutes ago | parent
jamesbfb 22 minutes ago | parent
fortran77 21 minutes ago | parent
alfjal 20 minutes ago | parent
lostlogin 17 minutes ago | parent
xnx 16 minutes ago | parent
0x4e 6 minutes ago | parent
BTW, Uber surge pricing felt absurd in this situation.
dearing 5 minutes ago | parent
Unrelated I only fly ocunus because I don't want a blue haired pilot.